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April 5, 2017

explanation of how Westbrook is stat-padding....these stats don't lie

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  3. Video w/ explanation of how Westbrook is stat-padding....these stats don't lie
https://twitter.com/LakeShowYo/status/847921839179415552

I think it's cowherd.

Pretty interesting stats. Basically confirms he doesn't play defense and is basically hunting easy rebounds which his teammates help him with, in order to stat pad.

Summary:
-Westbrook leads the league in uncontested rebounds
-Westbrook is 64th in contested rebounds
-Westbrook has contested 160 fg in the entire season - ranking dead last among players averaging 30 or more minutes per game
-Only Gobert and Whiteside have contested less 3pt field goals
-DeAndre Jordan has contested more 3pt fg's than Westbrook

Heres some of the stats:
https://tinyurl.com/kjcvd88
(It's a link to NBA.com stats)
(edited 4 days ago)quote
trillgully 4 days ago#2
I never seen so much energy go into trying to tear down a player. No matter how much you guys try he's winning MVP.
R.I.P. Dave Mirra. Truly a legend
Drug_Smoker 4 days ago#3
I find it disturbing that people are just now realizing in order for Westbrook to get rebounds you know, he has to actually attempt to rebound. Prior to recently did they just think the ball magically flew to him 10 times a game?

What it is, is amendable that a point guard can out rebound Forwards and Centers. In theory the most ideal player on the court to get the defensive rebound would be your point guard as he is typically the best decision maker and/or play maker on the court.
(edited 4 days ago)quote
NotDanHarenlol 4 days ago#4
Drug_Smoker posted...
I find it disturbing that people are just now realizing in order for Westbrook to get rebounds you know, he has to actually attempt to rebound. Prior to recently did they just think the ball magically flew to him 10 times a game?

What it is, is amendable that a point guard can out rebound Forwards and Centers. In theory the most ideal player on the court to get the defensive rebound would be your point guard as he is typically the best decision maker and/or play maker on the court.


You don't sacrifice defense and contested shots to get rebounds if you're a guard and you have of the better rebounding centers in the league on your team. Makes absolutely no sense for him to chase rebounds. There is no argument you can make that says not contesting shots and chasing rebounds makes your team better.
Drug_Smoker 4 days ago#5
NotDanHarenlol posted...
Drug_Smoker posted...
I find it disturbing that people are just now realizing in order for Westbrook to get rebounds you know, he has to actually attempt to rebound. Prior to recently did they just think the ball magically flew to him 10 times a game?

What it is, is amendable that a point guard can out rebound Forwards and Centers. In theory the most ideal player on the court to get the defensive rebound would be your point guard as he is typically the best decision maker and/or play maker on the court.


You don't sacrifice defense and contested shots to get rebounds if you're a guard and you have of the better rebounding centers in the league on your team. Makes absolutely no sense for him to chase rebounds. There is no argument you can make that says not contesting shots and chasing rebounds makes your team better.


So Jason Kidd and Gary Payton were stat padding when they got 10+ rebounds in a game? The ball didn't just magically fly to them 10 times. These are considered two of the best defensive point guards of all time.

Meanwhile boy body Curry isn't even considered a better defensive player than Westbrook. If you are taking defense into MVP consideration Curry should have no MVPs. His poor defense was pretty much a direct reason they blew the 3-1 lead in the finals. He didn't have Bogut to bail him out. You know, either that or completely choking offensively.
NotDanHarenlol 4 days ago#6
Drug_Smoker posted...
NotDanHarenlol posted...
Drug_Smoker posted...
I find it disturbing that people are just now realizing in order for Westbrook to get rebounds you know, he has to actually attempt to rebound. Prior to recently did they just think the ball magically flew to him 10 times a game?

What it is, is amendable that a point guard can out rebound Forwards and Centers. In theory the most ideal player on the court to get the defensive rebound would be your point guard as he is typically the best decision maker and/or play maker on the court.


You don't sacrifice defense and contested shots to get rebounds if you're a guard and you have of the better rebounding centers in the league on your team. Makes absolutely no sense for him to chase rebounds. There is no argument you can make that says not contesting shots and chasing rebounds makes your team better.


So Jason Kidd and Gary Payton were stat padding when they got 10+ rebounds in a game? The ball didn't just magically fly to them 10 times. These are considered two of the best defensive point guards of all time.

Meanwhile boy body Curry isn't even considered a better defensive player than Westbrook. If you are taking defense into MVP consideration Curry should have no MVPs. His poor defense was pretty much a direct reason they blew the 3-1 lead in the finals. He didn't have Bogut to bail him out. You know, either that or completely choking offensively.


I didnt watch enough Kidd or Payton games to comment, and I didn't really care about stats too much back in the early 00s tbqh. Show me their stats about contesting shots and fg% differential and I'll comment more on it. Neither of them averaged >10 rebounds per game, so its likely they werent chasing rebounds but I dunno maybe. 

Curry isnt "considered" a better defensive player thats because of his reputation from earlier in his career. Curry definitely hustles more on defense than Westbrook or Harden. Theres a reason why he has over twice as many contested shots as westbrook. Not to mention FG% differential Curry: +0.7, Westbrook: +3.7, Harden: +1.8. Thats insane dude, when Westbrook is guarding a player that players FG% goes up 3.7 %, not to mention he's barely contesting anything. I mean literal DeAndre Jordan is contesting more 3s than Westbrook. Like I said, Curry's rep came from his earlier years. Last year his defense was much better than him previously. He was a bad defender in the finals cuz he was playing hobbled and clearly lacked his normal lateral agility. Like do you even watch basketball? these are basic things that have been repeated a millon times and nearly every expert agrees. And you say Curry had Bogut ot bail him out, Westbrook literally has Steve Adams, u know the guy who dominated the paint against everyone last year when he wasn't focused on padding westbrooks stats. People just look at their body type and assume Curry sucks at defense and assume Westbrook is a great defender. Couldnt be further from the truth. 

Oh and btw Curry lead the league in steals last year. So however u wanna spin his defense, he's at least contesting shots, creating turnovers. Curry's fg% differential last year was -3.2. Which basically means Curry held players to 7% lower FG% than Westbrook this year. Thats a HUGE difference.

I'm literally using stats to backup everything I'm saying, you have nothing.
(edited 4 days ago)quote
Tbf anyone who watched at least one Thunder game this season knows this. What he's doing is incredible nonetheless but it's undeniable that he's stat padding and doesn't play defense. Still an MVP candidate but Harden should certainly be ahead. Durant, Westbrook, James, and Leonard are all fired for second as far as I'm concerned.
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ReignFury 4 days ago#8
NotDanHarenlol posted...
Drug_Smoker posted...
I find it disturbing that people are just now realizing in order for Westbrook to get rebounds you know, he has to actually attempt to rebound. Prior to recently did they just think the ball magically flew to him 10 times a game?

What it is, is amendable that a point guard can out rebound Forwards and Centers. In theory the most ideal player on the court to get the defensive rebound would be your point guard as he is typically the best decision maker and/or play maker on the court.


You don't sacrifice defense and contested shots to get rebounds if you're a guard and you have of the better rebounding centers in the league on your team. Makes absolutely no sense for him to chase rebounds. There is no argument you can make that says not contesting shots and chasing rebounds makes your team better.


How is OKC's defense against 3pointers?
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karmew32 4 days ago#9
TC is right. Westbrook is a fraud. Harden has my vote for MVP.
And none of that means anything because they're still better defensively (and obviously way better offensively) with him on the court.
PSN: TheUndying84
NotDanHarenlol 4 days ago#11
The_Undying_84 posted...
And none of that means anything because they're still better defensively (and obviously way better offensively) with him on the court.


That's true of ANY above average player.
NeoBlade258 4 days ago#12
NotDanHarenlol posted...
Drug_Smoker posted...
NotDanHarenlol posted...
Drug_Smoker posted...
I find it disturbing that people are just now realizing in order for Westbrook to get rebounds you know, he has to actually attempt to rebound. Prior to recently did they just think the ball magically flew to him 10 times a game?

What it is, is amendable that a point guard can out rebound Forwards and Centers. In theory the most ideal player on the court to get the defensive rebound would be your point guard as he is typically the best decision maker and/or play maker on the court.


You don't sacrifice defense and contested shots to get rebounds if you're a guard and you have of the better rebounding centers in the league on your team. Makes absolutely no sense for him to chase rebounds. There is no argument you can make that says not contesting shots and chasing rebounds makes your team better.


So Jason Kidd and Gary Payton were stat padding when they got 10+ rebounds in a game? The ball didn't just magically fly to them 10 times. These are considered two of the best defensive point guards of all time.

Meanwhile boy body Curry isn't even considered a better defensive player than Westbrook. If you are taking defense into MVP consideration Curry should have no MVPs. His poor defense was pretty much a direct reason they blew the 3-1 lead in the finals. He didn't have Bogut to bail him out. You know, either that or completely choking offensively.


I didnt watch enough Kidd or Payton games to comment, and I didn't really care about stats too much back in the early 00s tbqh. Show me their stats about contesting shots and fg% differential and I'll comment more on it. Neither of them averaged >10 rebounds per game, so its likely they werent chasing rebounds but I dunno maybe. 

Curry isnt "considered" a better defensive player thats because of his reputation from earlier in his career. Curry definitely hustles more on defense than Westbrook or Harden. Theres a reason why he has over twice as many contested shots as westbrook. Not to mention FG% differential Curry: +0.7, Westbrook: +3.7, Harden: +1.8. Thats insane dude, when Westbrook is guarding a player that players FG% goes up 3.7 %, not to mention he's barely contesting anything. I mean literal DeAndre Jordan is contesting more 3s than Westbrook. Like I said, Curry's rep came from his earlier years. Last year his defense was much better than him previously. He was a bad defender in the finals cuz he was playing hobbled and clearly lacked his normal lateral agility. Like do you even watch basketball? these are basic things that have been repeated a millon times and nearly every expert agrees. And you say Curry had Bogut ot bail him out, Westbrook literally has Steve Adams, u know the guy who dominated the paint against everyone last year when he wasn't focused on padding westbrooks stats. People just look at their body type and assume Curry sucks at defense and assume Westbrook is a great defender. Couldnt be further from the truth. 

Oh and btw Curry lead the league in steals last year. So however u wanna spin his defense, he's at least contesting shots, creating turnovers. Curry's fg% differential last year was -3.2. Which basically means Curry held players to 7% lower FG% than Westbrook this year. Thats a HUGE difference.

I'm literally using stats to backup everything I'm saying, you have nothing.
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NotDanHarenlol posted...
The_Undying_84 posted...
And none of that means anything because they're still better defensively (and obviously way better offensively) with him on the court.


That's true of ANY above average player.


Really? Because it's not true of, say, James Harden.
PSN: TheUndying84
Westbrook getting those rebounds is part of their scheme. They have players good at boxing out and Westbrook has lots of energy to get boards and lose balls all over the court. And when he has the ball in his hands its easier for them to get buckets in transition. How else are they going to score? You don't have to worry about accidental turnovers and rips from the Center when Westbrook can just rip the ball down and run up the court. 

Also Ive seen plenty of possessions where Westbrook jumps high and gets the board off the glass or is boxing out his man for the board. Not all of his boards are easy ones. You can get footage like that for all nba players. although I bet that his teammates do help him out here or there just because
Vikilla4V 3 days ago#15
The_Undying_84 posted...
NotDanHarenlol posted...
The_Undying_84 posted...
And none of that means anything because they're still better defensively (and obviously way better offensively) with him on the court.


That's true of ANY above average player.


Really? Because it's not true of, say, James Harden.


westbrook is a worse defender than harden
soul
NotDanHarenlol 3 days ago#16
The_Undying_84 posted...
NotDanHarenlol posted...
The_Undying_84 posted...
And none of that means anything because they're still better defensively (and obviously way better offensively) with him on the court.


That's true of ANY above average player.


Really? Because it's not true of, say, James Harden.


Show me the evidence that the thunder are better defensively with westbrook in the game. I'm not arguing it, I just wanna see the evidence. 

Uncontested Rebounds per game: 
Westbrook: 8.5 (Leads the league)
Harden: 6.4
Most other Guards: ~3-4

Contested Rebounds per game: 
Westbrook: 2.1
Harden: 1.8
Most other guards: ~1

Contested 3pt shots:
Westbrook: 114 (6th on his team, behind the entire starting lineup)
Harden: 275
Most guards: 150-240

Contested FGs:
Westbrook: 268 (7th on his own team, behind the entire starting lineup)
Harden: 618
Most guards: 300-600

Defended FG differential:
Westbrook: +3.7
Harden: +1.8
Average: 0


-Makes absolutely zero sense why the shortest player in ur starting lineup, ur PG, has the fewest contested 3s and total FGs on defense and the most rebounds on ur team.
mr_brain123 3 days ago#17
Damn so according to these stats a guy like Steve Nash, Spud Webb or any freaking point guard in the league could have easily been averaging 10+ rebounds per game if they just stopped playing defense

Good to know


...
Facts trump all
CleanthonyE 3 days ago#18
curry is absolutely a better defender than Westbrook and you'd be crazy to suggest otherwise

Westbrook might be the worst defensive point guard in the NBA this year
WaterLink 3 days ago#19
Can't wait until the playoffs where we can focus on teams advancing than this stupid MVP stuff about players on two teams that have 0 chance to win anything of significance.
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CleanthonyE 3 days ago#20
i love how everyone defending Westbrook is just like completely ignoring all of the info presented while plugging their ears yelling "YALL JUST HATIN"
livetime5 3 days ago#21
Took dan this long to realize this. Hey but there are people out there who haven't.
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NotDanHarenlol posted...
Uncontested Rebounds per game: 
Westbrook: 8.5 (Leads the league)
Harden: 6.4
Most other Guards: ~3-4

Contested Rebounds per game: 
Westbrook: 2.1
Harden: 1.8
Most other guards: ~1



So Westbrook gets double both contested and uncontested rebounds per game than all other guards. Basically stating the obvious that hes the best rebounding pg in the league. Why are people using this to throw shade?

It'd be something else if he got a lot of uncontested and very little contested. He gets a lot of rebounds period. No need to differentiate
CleanthonyE 3 days ago#23
because he has the fewest contested shots of any player playing 30+ minutes a game by a country f***ing mile

Harden has a pretty high uncontested rebound rate too but he's contested more threes than Westbrook has total shots

it's the "I am not gonna play defense so I can stat pad my triple double" that is the problem
(edited 3 days ago)quote
RomanReigns 3 days ago#24
That's why the idea that rebounds count for defensive rating is a joke.
NotDanHarenlol 3 days ago#25
Heres a good post on reddit (2 months ago) that absolutely obliterated Westbrook, with complete numbers to back it up:
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/5qat1j/statistically_analysis_russell_westbrooks/?st=j0zx9ae2&sh=a4f6dd69

Summary: Westbrook is almost never contesting shots, instead he's leaving his man open and blatantly attacking the paint in search of defensive rebounds with a numbers advantage. Beyond this, the entire rebounding culture of the team has been centered around the bigs boxing out and deferring rebounds to Westbrook. Additionally, due to his position being perimeter oriented, his constant search of rebounds has compromised OKC's perimeter defense, which ranks dead last in the NBA in opp. guards expected FG% by a considerable margin.

That article basically addresses every single aspect of his game and the thunder. There is no way around it, he's abandoning defense in search for padding his rebounds. They have the worst perimeter defense in the league, which is why they routinely get manhandled by good 3pt shooting teams, which is why they have zero shot at beating the Rockets, Warriors, or Spurs who are all elite 3pt shooting teams.

And to all those who say, "when he gets a triple double, they win"....the author of that post addresses that in the 2nd Edit section. In summary: They beat joke teams, and when he failed to get 10 rebounds and lost, it wasn't cuz of his rebounds, it's cuz he ended up playing low minutes because they were getting blown tf out by good shooting teams.

So Westbrook supporters, what do you have to say? I think with all the evidence the case is clear that he is infact a stat-padder in a stat-padding system.
(edited 3 days ago)quote
CleanthonyE posted...
i love how everyone defending Westbrook is just like completely ignoring all of the info presented while plugging their ears yelling "YALL JUST HATIN"
You call her Stephanie?
I call her Headphanie
RomanReigns posted...
That's why the idea that rebounds count for defensive rating is a joke.


If you don't the rebound you don't end the defensive possession. It's like not counting a score on offensive rating smh
NotDanHarenlol 3 days ago#28
Tony_Biggie_Pun posted...
RomanReigns posted...
That's why the idea that rebounds count for defensive rating is a joke.


If you don't the rebound you don't end the defensive possession. It's like not counting a score on offensive rating smh


if ur contesting the shot then u have less opportunities to rebound.
That doesn't have anything to do with what I said though...

If you take more 3s you have less opportunities to get fouled and get free throws. Therefore don't 3ptfg towards offensive rating??? 

Everything's a tradeoff. That's basketball
CleanthonyE 3 days ago#30
team defensive rebounds obviously have meaning

individual defensive rebounds are lmfao
12amMadman 3 days ago#31
He's definitely stat padding but it equals success for the team. I think they're 31-8 when Westbrook triple doubles.
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bond21 3 days ago#32
12amMadman posted...
He's definitely stat padding but it equals success for the team. I think they're 31-8 when Westbrook triple doubles.

So stealing rebounds from his big men and leaving people unguarded = success?
Stimpy, sometimes your wealth of ignorance astounds me.
CleanthonyE 3 days ago#33
they're going for a triple double every game

that whole correlation is utterly moronic
NotDanHarenlol posted...
The_Undying_84 posted...
NotDanHarenlol posted...
The_Undying_84 posted...
And none of that means anything because they're still better defensively (and obviously way better offensively) with him on the court.


That's true of ANY above average player.


Really? Because it's not true of, say, James Harden.


Show me the evidence that the thunder are better defensively with westbrook in the game. I'm not arguing it, I just wanna see the evidence.


Their defensive rating is 2.5 points better with Westbrook on the floor.

The Rockets' DRTG is 4.5 points worse with Harden on the floor.

According to basketballreference's on/off numbers. At least if I'm reading it right, it doesn't actually say defensive stats, it actually gives opponent's offensive stats instead, but those should be essentially the same thing.

bond21 posted...
12amMadman posted...
He's definitely stat padding but it equals success for the team. I think they're 31-8 when Westbrook triple doubles.

So stealing rebounds from his big men and leaving people unguarded = success?


Who says the big men are entitled to those rebounds? That video mostly just shows him grabbing ones with no opposing players nearby, IE situations where it clearly doesn't hurt the team. Why should it bother you that he decides to grab those instead of a big man? He's really just cutting out the middleman, they'd pass it to him right away anyways.
PSN: TheUndying84
#35
(message deleted)
bond21 3 days ago#36
The_Undying_84 posted...
Who says the big men are entitled to those rebounds? That video mostly just shows him grabbing ones with no opposing players nearby, IE situations where it clearly doesn't hurt the team. Why should it bother you that he decides to grab those instead of a big man? He's really just cutting out the middleman, they'd pass it to him right away anyways.


Did you miss the ones where Steven Adams is right there to grab it, and Westbrook jumps out of his skin to steal it? Westbrook could be defending someone on the perimeter instead of camping under the basket, but there's no stat for that.
Stimpy, sometimes your wealth of ignorance astounds me.
Badasi12b 3 days ago#37
Cowherd.
Fan of the Dallas Mavericks and the Jacksonville Jaguars
ReignFury 3 days ago#38
OKC is 4th in the league against 3s attempted and allowed per game
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NotDanHarenlol 3 days ago#39
ReignFury posted...
OKC is 4th in the league against 3s attempted and allowed per game


Which is why 3pt shooting teams like the warriors and rockets always destroy them?
OKC is top 10 on defense this year after losing to of their best defensive players (Durant and Ibaka). Also top 2 in rebounding

Westbrook doing what he's doing is helping the team
NotDanHarenlol posted...
ReignFury posted...
OKC is 4th in the league against 3s attempted and allowed per game


Which is why 3pt shooting teams like the warriors and rockets always destroy them?


Maybe it's the Warriors have 4 all stars and destroy everybody?? Smh

Also saying the Rockets destroyed then is an overstatement. The Thunder best them once, and lost two other times by 3 points. Other then the last game which did get out of hand. 

The Warriors is a obvious mismatch from the start. Obviously they're the best since they did take OKCs best player
(edited 3 days ago)quote
Tony_Biggie_Pun posted...
OKC is top 10 on defense this year after losing to of their best defensive players (Durant and Ibaka). Also top 2 in rebounding


No s*** they're Top 10 with Adams, Oladipo and Roberson. 76ers were Top 10 with Iverson sorry ass on defense. I'm wondering do you think these guys aren't excellent defenders or something. Let's go this route since you wanted too. Their offense with Westbrook doing what he's doing is dead average, while Houston has the best in the league.
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(edited 3 days ago)quote
CleanthonyE 3 days ago#43
AestheticaLZ posted...
76ers with Top 10 with Iverson sorry ass on defense.

this a million f***ing times over

it's the same exact bulls*** all over again
AestheticaLZ posted...
Tony_Biggie_Pun posted...
OKC is top 10 on defense this year after losing to of their best defensive players (Durant and Ibaka). Also top 2 in rebounding


No s*** they're Top 10 with Adams, Oladipo and Roberson. 76ers were Top 10 with Iverson sorry ass on defense. I'm wondering do you think these guys aren't excellent defenders or something. Let's go this route since you wanted too. Their offense with Westbrook doing what he's doing is dead average, while Houston has the best in the league.


They weren't top 10 last year and Adams Roberson were both on the team. Oladipo had been injured for a large portion of the season
It's not the defense that I disagree with. You can claim tactically it makes sense for him to take a breather.

It's the staying on the post to get rebounds instead of being there to receive the first pass and give them a chance to have their best and fastest player lead a fast transition that I think hurts them.
JfAtS1O3N 3 days ago#46
Eh, while there's valid points being raised with Westbrook's stat-padding, which he absolutely does, its hard to argue with the results. The Thunder are probably about as good as they could have hoped for this year considering they lost their best player.
WaterLink 3 days ago#47
Tony_Biggie_Pun posted...
Basically stating the obvious that hes the best rebounding pg in the league. Why are people using this to throw shade?

Because rebounding isn't typically a PG's job? Sure they'll get some, typically long ones but when a PG has that much of an elevated rebound stat compared to their peers you look and see why it is. It's because he's bailing on defending the actual shot and seeing if he can be in position in case his man misses, instead of, you know, actually contesting the shot itself. It's a horses*** way to play the game. It's like defensive cherry picking.
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pfh1001 3 days ago#48
The Thunder's 7ft center Steven Adams has 80 more contested 3 pointers than Westbrook, that's hilarious.
NotDanHarenlol 3 days ago#49
pfh1001 posted...
The Thunder's 7ft center Steven Adams has 80 more contested 3 pointers than Westbrook, that's hilarious.


Everyone on the starting lineup has more contested 3s than Westbrook, but yea that's the last person who should have more.

Also the triple double leads to wins theory has been refuted. Those wins have all been joke teams. Against any good team, they end up getting blown out, which results in limited minutes and thus no triple double. I'll show u guys the proof tomorrow, it's late now I'm away from my computer.
BewmHedshot 3 days ago#50
64th in contested rebounds is pretty good for a PG
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    MrDrMan 3 days ago#51
    CleanthonyE posted...
    i love how everyone defending Westbrook is just like completely ignoring all of the info presented while plugging their ears yelling "YALL JUST HATIN"


    Because these stats are cherry picked. As someone said earlier it could entirely just be OKC's scheme. Bigs box out and Westbrook gets the board to push the ball in transition.

    Stats are a supplemental tool not the end all be all.
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    NotDanHarenlol 3 days ago#52
    MrDrMan posted...
    CleanthonyE posted...
    i love how everyone defending Westbrook is just like completely ignoring all of the info presented while plugging their ears yelling "YALL JUST HATIN"


    Because these stats are cherry picked. As someone said earlier it could entirely just be OKC's scheme. Bigs box out and Westbrook gets the board to push the ball in transition.

    Stats are a supplemental tool not the end all be all.


    Basketball 101 dude....bigs boxing out and the pg chillin in the key, who guards the perimeter?
    young_flip 3 days ago#53
    Tony_Biggie_Pun posted...
    AestheticaLZ posted...
    Tony_Biggie_Pun posted...
    OKC is top 10 on defense this year after losing to of their best defensive players (Durant and Ibaka). Also top 2 in rebounding


    No s*** they're Top 10 with Adams, Oladipo and Roberson. 76ers were Top 10 with Iverson sorry ass on defense. I'm wondering do you think these guys aren't excellent defenders or something. Let's go this route since you wanted too. Their offense with Westbrook doing what he's doing is dead average, while Houston has the best in the league.


    They weren't top 10 last year and Adams Roberson were both on the team. Oladipo had been injured for a large portion of the season

    Plus he's ignoring the dantoni effect as well as the Rockets being specifically built to maximize Harden. The thunder on the other hand are keyed more to Kd still.
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    #54
    (message deleted)
    MrDrMan posted...
    CleanthonyE posted...
    i love how everyone defending Westbrook is just like completely ignoring all of the info presented while plugging their ears yelling "YALL JUST HATIN"


    Because these stats are cherry picked. As someone said earlier it could entirely just be OKC's scheme. Bigs box out and Westbrook gets the board to push the ball in transition.

    Stats are a supplemental tool not the end all be all.
    #56
    (message deleted)
    jammitin 3 days ago#57
    I think Westbrook is really good. I don't hate Westbrook, but the evidence is very damning.
    I'm the best at what I do and what I do isn't very much
    Carmelo 3 days ago#58
    people literally complaining a man is getting more rebounds what if Westbrook also statpadded himself to 100 ppg in addition to the rebounds and assists would you be complain about him statpadding still
    NBAallDay 3 days ago#59
    Carmelo posted...
    people literally complaining a man is getting more rebounds what if Westbrook also statpadded himself to 100 ppg in addition to the rebounds and assists would you be complain about him statpadding still


    Not sure how you stat pad to 100 but he is shooting 42% from the field at 32 ppg. God help us if he tried for more.
    jammitin 3 days ago#60
    Carmelo posted...
    people literally complaining a man is getting more rebounds what if Westbrook also statpadded himself to 100 ppg in addition to the rebounds and assists would you be complain about him statpadding still


    So you're asking if he stat padded other stats would people still complain about him stat padding? Pretty sure stat padding is stat padding, so people would criticize him on it. It's not the fact that he's getting more rebounds. People are talking about the factual evidence that he's getting more rebounds at the cost of defense. You can't call out Harden for sleeping on defense and not call out Westbrook for not playing defense at all.
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    ReignFury 3 days ago#61
    The whole switchup comes down to Adams success contesting 3s last postseason, with his sizze and mobility hes more valuable there than picking up uncontested rebounds. Thats why Westbrook doesn't contest 3s.
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    Carmelo 3 days ago#62
    NBAallDay posted...
    Carmelo posted...
    people literally complaining a man is getting more rebounds what if Westbrook also statpadded himself to 100 ppg in addition to the rebounds and assists would you be complain about him statpadding still


    Not sure how you stat pad to 100 but he is shooting 42% from the field at 32 ppg. God help us if he tried for more.


    literally would complain if westbrook averaged 100 points a game

    what if he averaged 200 would you still be complaining
    Carmelo 3 days ago#63
    jammitin posted...
    Carmelo posted...
    people literally complaining a man is getting more rebounds what if Westbrook also statpadded himself to 100 ppg in addition to the rebounds and assists would you be complain about him statpadding still


    So you're asking if he stat padded other stats would people still complain about him stat padding? Pretty sure stat padding is stat padding, so people would criticize him on it. It's not the fact that he's getting more rebounds. People are talking about the factual evidence that he's getting more rebounds at the cost of defense. You can't call out Harden for sleeping on defense and not call out Westbrook for not playing defense at all.


    what if he decided to statpad even more rebounds at the cost of defense and average 40 or 50 rebounds a game? would people complain if westbrook grabbed 100 rebounds in one game?
    NotDanHarenlol 3 days ago#64
    ReignFury posted...
    The whole switchup comes down to Adams success contesting 3s last postseason, with his sizze and mobility hes more valuable there than picking up uncontested rebounds. Thats why Westbrook doesn't contest 3s.


    So your 7 foot center is more valuable on the perimeter guarding 3s and your 6'3 PG is more valuable in the paint getting rebounds, makes sense.
    MrDrMan 3 days ago#65
    NotDanHarenlol posted...
    MrDrMan posted...
    CleanthonyE posted...
    i love how everyone defending Westbrook is just like completely ignoring all of the info presented while plugging their ears yelling "YALL JUST HATIN"


    Because these stats are cherry picked. As someone said earlier it could entirely just be OKC's scheme. Bigs box out and Westbrook gets the board to push the ball in transition.

    Stats are a supplemental tool not the end all be all.


    Basketball 101 dude....bigs boxing out and the pg chillin in the key, who guards the perimeter?


    If bigs are boxing out then clearly the focus is on ending the possession and obtaining the ball. OKC is a good rebounding team. They're not giving up offensive rebounds all the time so it's not even necessary at that point.

    In the case someone does grab an offensive rebound Westbrook is more than fast enough to close out.
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    CleanthonyE 3 days ago#67
    MrDrMan posted...
    CleanthonyE posted...
    i love how everyone defending Westbrook is just like completely ignoring all of the info presented while plugging their ears yelling "YALL JUST HATIN"


    Because these stats are cherry picked. As someone said earlier it could entirely just be OKC's scheme. Bigs box out and Westbrook gets the board to push the ball in transition.

    Stats are a supplemental tool not the end all be all.

    the whole "it's the scheme to get the team going in transition" thing is so dumb and is manufactured as an excuse for his blatant stat padding

    1) This argument completely ignores the defense part - There is no world in which the Thunder's plan to win games is for Russ to not contest shots so that he can get a slightly higher chance for a board, which will lead to an (at best) slightly better chance for a fast-break.

    2) This presumes that Russ will push the ball every time he gets a rebound, which clearly isn't the case. This also ignores all the times that he is literally fighting with his own teammates to get these boards (just check the video). You don't think it'd be more efficient if only one player grabbed the board while the rest of the team moved down the court?
    MrDrMan 3 days ago#68
    If he's going for a rebound there's nothing to contest at that point. What is hard to understand about that?

    Rarely is there a scenario where a team gets an offensive rebound and open 3. It happens but offensive rebounds are hard against good rebounding teams.
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    ReignFury 3 days ago#69
    NotDanHarenlol posted...
    ReignFury posted...
    The whole switchup comes down to Adams success contesting 3s last postseason, with his sizze and mobility hes more valuable there than picking up uncontested rebounds. Thats why Westbrook doesn't contest 3s.


    So your 7 foot center is more valuable on the perimeter guarding 3s and your 6'3 PG is more valuable in the paint getting rebounds, makes sense.


    He doesn't stay there he switches out, anyways it aint like guards are the only three point threats these days
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    CleanthonyE 3 days ago#70
    MrDrMan posted...
    If he's going for a rebound there's nothing to contest at that point. What is hard to understand about that?

    you do realize the whole point of this argument is that he leaves his man with an uncontested shot in order to grab the rebound right

    what is so hard to understand about this
    NotDanHarenlol 3 days ago#71
    I think all of us arguing against westbrook are baffled right now about how westbrook supporters aren't comprehending the simple concept that he abandons his man at the perimeter to chase rebounds. The stats overwhelmingly support this, the video overwhelmingly supports this. If the numbers were borderline close I wouldn't argue it, but literally backup Jerami Grant who plays <20 min per game has 50% more contested fg than westbrook, and 8% more contested 3pters.
    Carmelo 3 days ago#72
    never before have I seen so many people try to punish a man for averaging 10 rebounds per game
    livetime5 3 days ago#73
    Carmelo posted...
    never before have I seen so many people try to punish a man for averaging 10 rebounds per game

    Punish? No it's more like "wow he's doing something amazing let's see how he does it......oh-oh that's how (awkward silence)".
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    derrate 3 days ago#74
    trillgully posted...
    I never seen so much energy go into trying to tear down a player. No matter how much you guys try he's winning MVP.


    Tear down? He gets every FT rebound because the bigs leave. 

    HES A f***ING JOKE AND ONLY IDIOTS DISAGREE.
    derrate 3 days ago#75
    Carmelo posted...
    never before have I seen so many people try to punish a man for averaging 10 rebounds per game


    Because he isn't.
    ReignFury 3 days ago#76
    NotDanHarenlol posted...
    I think all of us arguing against westbrook are baffled right now about how westbrook supporters aren't comprehending the simple concept that he abandons his man at the perimeter to chase rebounds. The stats overwhelmingly support this, the video overwhelmingly supports this. If the numbers were borderline close I wouldn't argue it, but literally backup Jerami Grant who plays <20 min per game has 50% more contested fg than westbrook, and 8% more contested 3pters.


    So why isn't OKC one of the worst defense against the three if theres always an open shot? how do they allow so few perimeter shots? (4th lowest in threes attempted and allowed)
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    livetime5 3 days ago#77
    ReignFury posted...
    NotDanHarenlol posted...
    I think all of us arguing against westbrook are baffled right now about how westbrook supporters aren't comprehending the simple concept that he abandons his man at the perimeter to chase rebounds. The stats overwhelmingly support this, the video overwhelmingly supports this. If the numbers were borderline close I wouldn't argue it, but literally backup Jerami Grant who plays <20 min per game has 50% more contested fg than westbrook, and 8% more contested 3pters.


    So why isn't OKC one of the worst defense against the three if theres always an open shot? how do they allow so few perimeter shots? (4th lowest in threes attempted and allowed)

    Because their role players are underrated defensively?
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    (edited 3 days ago)quote
    NotDanHarenlol 3 days ago#78
    ReignFury posted...
    NotDanHarenlol posted...
    I think all of us arguing against westbrook are baffled right now about how westbrook supporters aren't comprehending the simple concept that he abandons his man at the perimeter to chase rebounds. The stats overwhelmingly support this, the video overwhelmingly supports this. If the numbers were borderline close I wouldn't argue it, but literally backup Jerami Grant who plays <20 min per game has 50% more contested fg than westbrook, and 8% more contested 3pters.


    So why isn't OKC one of the worst defense against the three if theres always an open shot? how do they allow so few perimeter shots? (4th lowest in threes attempted and allowed)


    Because everyone else on the team is defending the 3 instead of westbrook.
    ReignFury 3 days ago#79
    livetime5 posted...
    ReignFury posted...
    NotDanHarenlol posted...
    I think all of us arguing against westbrook are baffled right now about how westbrook supporters aren't comprehending the simple concept that he abandons his man at the perimeter to chase rebounds. The stats overwhelmingly support this, the video overwhelmingly supports this. If the numbers were borderline close I wouldn't argue it, but literally backup Jerami Grant who plays <20 min per game has 50% more contested fg than westbrook, and 8% more contested 3pters.


    So why isn't OKC one of the worst defense against the three if theres always an open shot? how do they allow so few perimeter shots? (4th lowest in threes attempted and allowed)

    Because their role players are underrated defensively?


    So to make people happy they shouldn't play to these strengths and just stat pad uncontested rebounds so Wbrook can contest threes?
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    Mizznox 3 days ago#80
    When did all five guys defending until a shot goes up, then all five guys making an effort to box out or go for the ball become a weird concept for the Westbrook MVP crowd?
    NotDanHarenlol posted...
    I think all of us arguing against westbrook are baffled right now about how westbrook supporters aren't comprehending the simple concept that he abandons his man at the perimeter to chase rebounds. The stats overwhelmingly support this, the video overwhelmingly supports this. If the numbers were borderline close I wouldn't argue it, but literally backup Jerami Grant who plays <20 min per game has 50% more contested fg than westbrook, and 8% more contested 3pters.


    I showed you that he has a positive impact on defense despite your stupid random stats, and you ignored it. 

    So shut up now, you have proven you are not arguing in good faith.

    I also already pointed out that 90% of your video is not that. It's mostly him grabbing missed free throws where there was zero risk of anything bad happening.
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    Mizznox posted...
    When did all five guys defending until a shot goes up, then all five guys making an effort to box out or go for the ball become a weird concept for the Westbrook MVP crowd?


    When it clearly is part of the team's scheme to have Westbrook get the ball so he can push in transition.

    What they're doing is working and helps him conserve energy for his explosive offensive style.

    His not playing defense and his rebounding are independent of each other. The bad defense is a legit knock against Westbrook, his rebounding ability is a positive.
    Mizznox 3 days ago#83
    I agree with most of that except for them being independent. Westbrook is a great rebounder no matter what, but focusing on boards over defense does help his numbers.
    CleanthonyE 2 days ago#84
    ChandlerParsons posted...
    Mizznox posted...
    When did all five guys defending until a shot goes up, then all five guys making an effort to box out or go for the ball become a weird concept for the Westbrook MVP crowd?


    When it clearly is part of the team's scheme to have Westbrook get the ball so he can push in transition.

    What they're doing is working and helps him conserve energy for his explosive offensive style.

    His not playing defense and his rebounding are independent of each other. The bad defense is a legit knock against Westbrook, his rebounding ability is a positive.

    CleanthonyE posted...

    the whole "it's the scheme to get the team going in transition" thing is so dumb and is manufactured as an excuse for his blatant stat padding

    1) This argument completely ignores the defense part - There is no world in which the Thunder's plan to win games is for Russ to not contest shots so that he can get a slightly higher chance for a board, which will lead to an (at best) slightly better chance for a fast-break.

    2) This presumes that Russ will push the ball every time he gets a rebound, which clearly isn't the case. This also ignores all the times that he is literally fighting with his own teammates to get these boards (just check the video). You don't think it'd be more efficient if only one player grabbed the board while the rest of the team moved down the court?
    1) the defense and rebounding are separate.
    He's conserving energy by not playing D. Same thing happened when Durant/Ibaka got hurt in 2014(?). People are just looking to discredit his accomplishments.

    2) Westbrook will literally push the ball off of every single rebound if the opposing team doesnt get back. He plays with an absurd amount of energy on offense. He has the green light from coaches to rest on D so he can go all out on offense. 

    Say what y'all want but it's working for the Thunder on both ends
    ReignFury 2 days ago#86
    At the end of the day he's not hurting his team, if OKC was one of the worst or even an average team defending threes then it would be a problem.
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    ChandlerParsons posted...
    1) the defense and rebounding are separate.
    He's conserving energy by not playing D. Same thing happened when Durant/Ibaka got hurt in 2014(?). People are just looking to discredit his accomplishments.


    What the f***

    This dude has literally at times stopped following people and leaving people like Steph Curry wide open to look at the rim. How are you even defending that is beyond me right now Cuban.
    ChandlerParsons posted...
    2) Westbrook will literally push the ball off of every single rebound if the opposing team doesnt get back. He plays with an absurd amount of energy on offense. He has the green light from coaches to rest on D so he can go all out on offense. 

    Say what y'all want but it's working for the Thunder on both ends


    The Thunder offense is dead average. Can we please stop acting like he's leading this even good offense or something. They are winning ON THEIR DEFENSE. And this s*** on defense has nothing to do with Westbrook an everything to do with how underrated Adams (especially), Roberson and Oladipo are. Their offense pads like s*** against s*** teams like the Lakers, Sixers etc. and blow their doors off. But when they play against a team like Houston, Warriors, Portland, Washington etc. they get their ass beat because their guard doesn't even attempt to defend shots.

    It's staggering how much people are defending this bulls*** and hyping Westbrook up. This guy doesn't even attempt to defend shots, this guy steals the f*** out of rebounds judging by his uncontested percentage and we're saying give him MVP? He isn't even close to Harden in scoring and the difference is probably the difference between freaking Kevin Durant and Carmelo Anthony in scoring. Harden is legitimately on several tiers higher in scoring while leading the #1 offense in a league where freaking Golden State exists (last time I checked). Like I have no idea that triple doubles made people this damn crazy.
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    (edited 2 days ago)quote
    -______- 2 days ago#88
    CleanthonyE posted...
    Westbrook might be the worst defensive point guard in the NBA this year


    whoa whoa whoa harden still exists
    -______-
    His offense is average because it's a team full of defensive players and they fall off of a cliff without Westbrook.

    You wanna hype Harden up but ignore that he's surrounded by shooters with a GOAT offensive coach.

    At the end of the day every single metric shows Westbrook is extremely valuable on offense and either below average or simply bad defensively. Y'all are over blowing things. He isnt hurting the team and it's clearly by design. They have him down low on FTs and have teammates box out so he can get the board
    CleanthonyE 2 days ago#90
    -______- posted...
    CleanthonyE posted...
    Westbrook might be the worst defensive point guard in the NBA this year


    whoa whoa whoa harden still exists

    he's clearly worse than harden this year. it's not up for debate
    young_flip 2 days ago#91
    CleanthonyE posted...
    -______- posted...
    CleanthonyE posted...
    Westbrook might be the worst defensive point guard in the NBA this year


    whoa whoa whoa harden still exists

    he's clearly worse than harden this year. it's not up for debate

    false. Irving is also worse (and I like Kyrie)
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    RG11 2 days ago#92
    CleanthonyE posted...
    -______- posted...
    CleanthonyE posted...
    Westbrook might be the worst defensive point guard in the NBA this year


    whoa whoa whoa harden still exists

    he's clearly worse than harden this year. it's not up for debate


    Lol definitely not true.
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    3. Video w/ explanation of how Westbrook is stat-padding....these stats don't lie

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