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August 7, 2017

Do you agree with the way Germany handles their Nazi history?

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DigitalFury_ 12 hours ago#1
And the crackdowns that have been in place since after WWII? And should the U.S. take a more proactive role in censoring Confederate history? On one hand, there is an argument for not romanticizing the Civil War. On the other hand, if one wishes to identify with the Confederate south, who are we to tell them how to live their lives?

I personally believe people should be allowed to wave the Confederate flag if they wish but I will also judge them as idiots for doing so; but I wouldn't want to stop them from doing so unless they're using it to incite violence. One's private life is a matter of personal choice but what about Confederate materials on public or government property? That's a bit more difficult to determine but I don't think their should be statues and whatnot on public/government grounds

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/tourists-arrested-in-germany-for-performing-hitler-salute/ar-AApxc23?OCID=ansmsnnews11
Currently Playing: Stories of Bethem: Full Moon and Blue Dragon
Currently Reading: The Quran and and Tao Te Ching
CherryTsundere 12 hours ago#2
Free democratic basic order for life
Behold my beauty!
kislev 12 hours ago#3
Ironically they are acting like liberal nazis
We need a new Final Fantasy Tactics
(edited 12 hours ago)quote
str8Knowledge 11 hours ago#4
The war against nazis should never end cause they started it.
Airship_Canon 10 hours ago#5
DigitalFury_ posted...
And should the U.S. take a more proactive role in censoring Confederate history? On one hand, there is an argument for not romanticizing the Civil War. On the other hand, if one wishes to identify with the Confederate south, who are we to tell them how to live their lives?


The reason there seems like there was no "crackdown" is because of the nature of the war - it was a civil war, after all. While Reconstruction sputtered and failed, there were real problems white Southerners were facing (not to belittle the freedmen who suffered more during Reconstruction with its failure) and national reconciliation was seen as a key to unite the country and prevent a possible third wave of violence or another civil war. It was seen as better to live peaceably, at the expense of the freedmen (who at this point their cause lost a lot of support from white Northerners who were initially eager for Reconstruction).

Confederate symbols by and large disappeared for a while after the war, only reappearing as memorialization for the Civil War became common and the Southerners had a handy reason for going to war that wasn't morally deplorable (states' rights) that could make them prouder to have been an underdog in an "unnecessary and tragic" war as it became romanticized.

The situation is very different with Nazi Germany, and personally because of the circumstances of the war the post-war history played out very differently.

And no, I don't really agree with Germany's stance on free speech, because people were rather disillusioned by Nazism by and large. A tiny minority will still be for it, but that's that, a tiny minority, who simply use other symbols and whatnot if they can't use the old ones.
A nation is born stoic, and dies epicurean. ~ Will & Ariel Durant
(edited 9 hours ago)quote
Imagine comparing the Confederacy to Nazi Germany.
He who understands baboon would do more towards metaphysics than Locke. - Charles Darwin
DigitalFury_ 9 hours ago#8
Superlnfinity45 posted...
Imagine comparing the Confederacy to Nazi Germany.

Imagine posting in a topic but not actually contributing to the conversation.....
Currently Playing: Stories of Bethem: Full Moon and Blue Dragon
Currently Reading: The Quran and and Tao Te Ching
CherryTsundere 9 hours ago#9
Superlnfinity45 posted...
Imagine comparing the Confederacy to Nazi Germany.

You are right, it's unfair to Nazi Germany. 

Nazi Germany was actually internationally recognized.
Behold my beauty!
(edited 9 hours ago)quote
hoax123 9 hours ago#10
I still dont get why southerners are salty about the confederacy losing the war, just deal with it, ffs.
Lock her up!
Xtopher85 8 hours ago#11
I agree that anyone should be allowed to fly a confederate flag if they choose to, with the understanding that many of us will be allowed to think they are idiots for doing so. It's one thing to condemn someone for saying/doing something stupid, it's a whole 'nother thing to disallow them to do so. 

That said, the confederate flag should probably not be flown on state/federal property. 

I've heard the argument over and over "we should fly the confederate flag because it's part of our history, and we don't wish to erase our history." There's a difference between remembering history (which is what textbooks are for) and celebrating history (which is which flying flags is for). Without even touching the topic of slavery, the confederate south tried to secede from this great nation, a treasonous act, and they lost a war over it. That is not something to be celebrated.
-PSN: Xtopher85
"Being alive is pretty much a constant stream of embarassment." - Pod 153
Shoujo 8 hours ago#12
Government censorship is authoritarian and unacceptable.
Shoujo 8 hours ago#13
Xtopher85 posted...
I agree that anyone should be allowed to fly a confederate flag if they choose to, with the understanding that many of us will be allowed to think they are idiots for doing so. It's one thing to condemn someone for saying/doing something stupid, it's a whole 'nother thing to disallow them to do so. 

That said, the confederate flag should probably not be flown on state/federal property. 

I've heard the argument over and over "we should fly the confederate flag because it's part of our history, and we don't wish to erase our history." There's a difference between remembering history (which is what textbooks are for) and celebrating history (which is which flying flags is for). Without even touching the topic of slavery, the confederate south tried to secede from this great nation, a treasonous act, and they lost a war over it. That is not something to be celebrated.

It's a flag which represents a people and a region. Assuming anyone who flies it does so because they're supporting "slavery/treason" unless they're outright making said motivations clear is nothing but petty bigotry.
Ivashanko 8 hours ago#14
Some parts, yes. Other parts, no. They have not been apologetic enough to the Slavs or the Romani they butchered. But.. Many do feel guilty about that part of their history, very few find pride in it, and they have certainly apologised to some groups very decently.
Shoujo posted...
It's a flag which represents-

-A non-state that made it for 4 years before it got beaten into submission.
Behold my beauty!
(edited 8 hours ago)quote
KA1N3R 8 hours ago#16
Yes, I do.

There are certain aspects where government 'censorship' can be beneficial. This is one of those.

And it's not like the people don't know what it all means. Germans get knowledge about WW2 injected in their brains for all of their lives and on average, I'd say they know more about WW2 than any other nation.
No, I won't say 'In my opinion', because what I say is subjective anyway. And you should know that.
https://xkcd.com/1357/
CommonGrackle 8 hours ago#17
Since practically all members of the original Nazi party are dead I don't see the point in trying to censor it anymore.

Maybe a few years ago when a large number of these people were still kicking but not now
globalist
Shoujo 8 hours ago#18
CherryTsundere posted...
Shoujo posted...
It's a flag which represents-

-A non-state that made it for 4 years before it got beaten into submission.

Also represents heritage & culture.
No. They have given up fundamental rights like freedom of speech to pretend something never happened.
MAGA.
Shoujo 8 hours ago#20
KA1N3R posted...
Yes, I do.

There are certain aspects where government 'censorship' can be beneficial. This is one of those.

And it's not like the people don't know what it all means. Germans get knowledge about WW2 injected in their brains for all of their lives and on average, I'd say they know more about WW2 than any other nation.

It's ironic how you even have that shitty xkcd comic about free speech in your sig.

Maybe we should censor you?
KA1N3R 8 hours ago#21
Shoujo posted...
Xtopher85 posted...
I agree that anyone should be allowed to fly a confederate flag if they choose to, with the understanding that many of us will be allowed to think they are idiots for doing so. It's one thing to condemn someone for saying/doing something stupid, it's a whole 'nother thing to disallow them to do so. 

That said, the confederate flag should probably not be flown on state/federal property. 

I've heard the argument over and over "we should fly the confederate flag because it's part of our history, and we don't wish to erase our history." There's a difference between remembering history (which is what textbooks are for) and celebrating history (which is which flying flags is for). Without even touching the topic of slavery, the confederate south tried to secede from this great nation, a treasonous act, and they lost a war over it. That is not something to be celebrated.

It's a flag which represents a people and a region. Assuming anyone who flies it does so because they're supporting "slavery/treason" unless they're outright making said motivations clear is nothing but petty bigotry.

Those people know exactly what values and what history they're celebrating or appear to celebrate by flying a confederate flag. And anyone who doesn't is a fucking idiot.
No, I won't say 'In my opinion', because what I say is subjective anyway. And you should know that.
https://xkcd.com/1357/
Shoujo posted...
CherryTsundere posted...
Shoujo posted...
It's a flag which represents-

-A non-state that made it for 4 years before it got beaten into submission.

Also represents heritage & culture.

>4 years
>heritage & culture

Lol.
Behold my beauty!
Shoujo 8 hours ago#23
KA1N3R posted...
Shoujo posted...
Xtopher85 posted...
I agree that anyone should be allowed to fly a confederate flag if they choose to, with the understanding that many of us will be allowed to think they are idiots for doing so. It's one thing to condemn someone for saying/doing something stupid, it's a whole 'nother thing to disallow them to do so. 

That said, the confederate flag should probably not be flown on state/federal property. 

I've heard the argument over and over "we should fly the confederate flag because it's part of our history, and we don't wish to erase our history." There's a difference between remembering history (which is what textbooks are for) and celebrating history (which is which flying flags is for). Without even touching the topic of slavery, the confederate south tried to secede from this great nation, a treasonous act, and they lost a war over it. That is not something to be celebrated.

It's a flag which represents a people and a region. Assuming anyone who flies it does so because they're supporting "slavery/treason" unless they're outright making said motivations clear is nothing but petty bigotry.

Those people know exactly what values and what history they're celebrating or appear to celebrate by flying a confederate flag. And anyone who doesn't is a fucking idiot.

If your only argument is "fucking idiot", then, well, uh, okay.
Shoujo 8 hours ago#24
CherryTsundere posted...
Shoujo posted...
CherryTsundere posted...
Shoujo posted...
It's a flag which represents-

-A non-state that made it for 4 years before it got beaten into submission.

Also represents heritage & culture.

>4 years
>heritage & culture

Lol.

Try 150 years.
KA1N3R 8 hours ago#25
Shoujo posted...
KA1N3R posted...
Yes, I do.

There are certain aspects where government 'censorship' can be beneficial. This is one of those.

And it's not like the people don't know what it all means. Germans get knowledge about WW2 injected in their brains for all of their lives and on average, I'd say they know more about WW2 than any other nation.

It's ironic how you even have that shitty xkcd comic about free speech in your sig.

Maybe we should censor you?

That is pretty ironic, I admit that. It's still not really related, especially when talking about german free speech laws, not about american ones.

You can't censor me.
No, I won't say 'In my opinion', because what I say is subjective anyway. And you should know that.
https://xkcd.com/1357/
Shoujo 8 hours ago#26
KA1N3R posted...
Shoujo posted...
KA1N3R posted...
Yes, I do.

There are certain aspects where government 'censorship' can be beneficial. This is one of those.

And it's not like the people don't know what it all means. Germans get knowledge about WW2 injected in their brains for all of their lives and on average, I'd say they know more about WW2 than any other nation.

It's ironic how you even have that shitty xkcd comic about free speech in your sig.

Maybe we should censor you?

That is pretty ironic, I admit that. It's still not really related, especially when talking about german free speech laws, not about american ones.

You can't censor me.

It's related and funny because it's a garbage pro-censorship comic.

http://shetterly.blogspot.com/2014/04/xkcd-doesnt-understand-free-speechor.html
KA1N3R 8 hours ago#27
Shoujo posted...
KA1N3R posted...
Shoujo posted...
Xtopher85 posted...
I agree that anyone should be allowed to fly a confederate flag if they choose to, with the understanding that many of us will be allowed to think they are idiots for doing so. It's one thing to condemn someone for saying/doing something stupid, it's a whole 'nother thing to disallow them to do so. 

That said, the confederate flag should probably not be flown on state/federal property. 

I've heard the argument over and over "we should fly the confederate flag because it's part of our history, and we don't wish to erase our history." There's a difference between remembering history (which is what textbooks are for) and celebrating history (which is which flying flags is for). Without even touching the topic of slavery, the confederate south tried to secede from this great nation, a treasonous act, and they lost a war over it. That is not something to be celebrated.

It's a flag which represents a people and a region. Assuming anyone who flies it does so because they're supporting "slavery/treason" unless they're outright making said motivations clear is nothing but petty bigotry.

Those people know exactly what values and what history they're celebrating or appear to celebrate by flying a confederate flag. And anyone who doesn't is a fucking idiot.

If your only argument is "fucking idiot", then, well, uh, okay.

Strawman.

If you don't want to appear like a racist and/or slavery-advocate, then don't fly the flag representing that. It's as easy as that.
No, I won't say 'In my opinion', because what I say is subjective anyway. And you should know that.
https://xkcd.com/1357/
Hanks Wiliams Jr - If the South Would Have Won 


this song is about the south winning the war and has nothing to do with slavery. people are proud to be from the south for a litany of reasons.
MAGA.
(edited 8 hours ago)quote
KA1N3R 8 hours ago#29
Shoujo posted...
KA1N3R posted...
Shoujo posted...
KA1N3R posted...
Yes, I do.

There are certain aspects where government 'censorship' can be beneficial. This is one of those.

And it's not like the people don't know what it all means. Germans get knowledge about WW2 injected in their brains for all of their lives and on average, I'd say they know more about WW2 than any other nation.

It's ironic how you even have that shitty xkcd comic about free speech in your sig.

Maybe we should censor you?

That is pretty ironic, I admit that. It's still not really related, especially when talking about german free speech laws, not about american ones.

You can't censor me.

It's related and funny because it's a garbage pro-censorship comic.

http://shetterly.blogspot.com/2014/04/xkcd-doesnt-understand-free-speechor.html

If your only argument is a comic in my signature, then, well, uh, okay.
No, I won't say 'In my opinion', because what I say is subjective anyway. And you should know that.
https://xkcd.com/1357/
Shoujo 8 hours ago#30
KA1N3R posted...
Shoujo posted...
KA1N3R posted...
Shoujo posted...
Xtopher85 posted...
I agree that anyone should be allowed to fly a confederate flag if they choose to, with the understanding that many of us will be allowed to think they are idiots for doing so. It's one thing to condemn someone for saying/doing something stupid, it's a whole 'nother thing to disallow them to do so. 

That said, the confederate flag should probably not be flown on state/federal property. 

I've heard the argument over and over "we should fly the confederate flag because it's part of our history, and we don't wish to erase our history." There's a difference between remembering history (which is what textbooks are for) and celebrating history (which is which flying flags is for). Without even touching the topic of slavery, the confederate south tried to secede from this great nation, a treasonous act, and they lost a war over it. That is not something to be celebrated.

It's a flag which represents a people and a region. Assuming anyone who flies it does so because they're supporting "slavery/treason" unless they're outright making said motivations clear is nothing but petty bigotry.

Those people know exactly what values and what history they're celebrating or appear to celebrate by flying a confederate flag. And anyone who doesn't is a fucking idiot.

If your only argument is "fucking idiot", then, well, uh, okay.

Strawman.

If you don't want to appear like a racist and/or slavery-advocate, then don't fly the flag representing that. It's as easy as that.

If you don't want to appear like a racist or slavery-advocate, don't be a racist or slavery-advocate. What flag you fly is irrelevant here to people who aren't bigoted SJWs.

Assuming the rebel flag only represents evil things is SJWing.
#31
(message deleted)
Musourenka 8 hours ago#32
In the case of the Confederate flag, the SJWs are largely correct, Madfoot.
Shooing away pigeons crapping on debate tables is not a violation of the pigeons' free speech.
Shoujo 8 hours ago#33
Musourenka posted...
In the case of the Confederate flag, the SJWs are largely correct, Madfoot.

No they are not and I've covered this dozens of times. It's simply a false statement to say that of all the millions upon millions of Americans who fly the rebel flag and claim it represents something positive to them, that all of them are necessarily lying and racist.
(edited 8 hours ago)quote
Musourenka 8 hours ago#34
And you were proven wrong every time, Madfoot. Though, I do think ignorance also has a lot to do with people flying the flag as well, and not just racism or rebellion.

As for Germany, I don't agree with how they punish Nazi propaganda (I prefer public humiliation), but I understand why they do it.
Shooing away pigeons crapping on debate tables is not a violation of the pigeons' free speech.
SaikyoStyle 7 hours ago#35
You're gonna get banned faster than a Nazi salute in Frankfurt madfoot.
Orlando City/USA Soccer 
Dukat/Madred 2020. Make Cardassia Great Again!
KA1N3R 7 hours ago#36
Shoujo posted...
KA1N3R posted...
Shoujo posted...
KA1N3R posted...
Shoujo posted...
Xtopher85 posted...
I agree that anyone should be allowed to fly a confederate flag if they choose to, with the understanding that many of us will be allowed to think they are idiots for doing so. It's one thing to condemn someone for saying/doing something stupid, it's a whole 'nother thing to disallow them to do so. 

That said, the confederate flag should probably not be flown on state/federal property. 

I've heard the argument over and over "we should fly the confederate flag because it's part of our history, and we don't wish to erase our history." There's a difference between remembering history (which is what textbooks are for) and celebrating history (which is which flying flags is for). Without even touching the topic of slavery, the confederate south tried to secede from this great nation, a treasonous act, and they lost a war over it. That is not something to be celebrated.

It's a flag which represents a people and a region. Assuming anyone who flies it does so because they're supporting "slavery/treason" unless they're outright making said motivations clear is nothing but petty bigotry.

Those people know exactly what values and what history they're celebrating or appear to celebrate by flying a confederate flag. And anyone who doesn't is a fucking idiot.

If your only argument is "fucking idiot", then, well, uh, okay.

Strawman.

If you don't want to appear like a racist and/or slavery-advocate, then don't fly the flag representing that. It's as easy as that.

If you don't want to appear like a racist or slavery-advocate, don't be a racist or slavery-advocate. What flag you fly is irrelevant here to people who aren't bigoted SJWs.

Assuming the rebel flag only represents evil things is SJWing.

In the public conscious, that flag does represent 'evil things'.
No way around that. So....don't fly that flag and you won't appear like an advocate for that.

It doesn't matter what you really think, if you fly that flag, other people will think you are a racist.
And if you don't realize that...well, then you're frankly an idiot.
No, I won't say 'In my opinion', because what I say is subjective anyway. And you should know that.
https://xkcd.com/1357/
Xenogears15 7 hours ago#37
As an American, it does kinda bother me.

On the same hand though, I can understand why they handle it they way they do.
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DigitalFury_ 7 hours ago#38
TheHonorableOne posted...
No. They have given up fundamental rights like freedom of speech to pretend something never happened.

Are they trying to pretend it never happened? Because I don't think that's possible. Or are they trying to move on from the past? And show that they aren't the same country with the same ideals? If my grandfather was a serial killer, I certainly wouldn't want people walking up to me and demonstrating his 'signature'. There is no way to pretend he didn't do it but the daily reminder from people? No thanks, I don't want to relive something horrendous my ancestors (very near ancestors) did.
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Currently Reading: The Quran and and Tao Te Ching
Endgame 7 hours ago#39
The Confederate Flag represents treason against America for the sake of oppression.

All of the fucking seccession speeches for each state that joined the Confederacy outright said they did it over slavery and the belief that the "black race" (Not the exact wording they used, but that would get me modded.) is inferior to the white race. The "heritage not hate" gits are the ones really trying to censor the flag's meaning and history here.

And here's the kicker: no one was embracing the "stars and bars" for 150 years after the fact. It was missing until the 1960s where segregationists started using it during the Civil Rights Movement because..... I shouldn't even have to explain it to you. But just TRY to think here: black Americans at large are making a move to demand they be treated with basic human dignity and the same rights as anyone else. Then their detractors start displaying the Confederate flag which represents the oppression of black people..... their intentions weren't subtle at all.

And the white supremacist groups in Europe? Well, the swastika is banned in most European countries. So they needed a substitute. Something internationally associated with bigotry against non-whites but isn't banned by their local governments. Guess what symbol they chose to embrace?

Flag is about racism. The flag was brought back in the 1960s BECAUSE of racism. To say otherwise is to show complete and utter ignorance of history.

"Heritage not hate"? No no no. Heritage OF hate.

"Oh no no no! We had economic reasons to oppose the north!"

Yeah, it's called being too lazy to pick your own damn cotton. Still tied directly to slavery. It was always about slavery.
I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death for my right to fight you to the death. -Stephen Colbert
Shoujo posted...
Try 150 years.


I didn't realize the confederacy lasted until 2011. Guess all of my American history classes were "fake news!"
It's like punching a round bottom dummy. We all know it's futile, but occasionally it's fun.
- willythemailboy on the subject of stray orcas
Shoujo posted...
KA1N3R posted...
Shoujo posted...
KA1N3R posted...
Shoujo posted...
Xtopher85 posted...
I agree that anyone should be allowed to fly a confederate flag if they choose to, with the understanding that many of us will be allowed to think they are idiots for doing so. It's one thing to condemn someone for saying/doing something stupid, it's a whole 'nother thing to disallow them to do so. 

That said, the confederate flag should probably not be flown on state/federal property. 

I've heard the argument over and over "we should fly the confederate flag because it's part of our history, and we don't wish to erase our history." There's a difference between remembering history (which is what textbooks are for) and celebrating history (which is which flying flags is for). Without even touching the topic of slavery, the confederate south tried to secede from this great nation, a treasonous act, and they lost a war over it. That is not something to be celebrated.

It's a flag which represents a people and a region. Assuming anyone who flies it does so because they're supporting "slavery/treason" unless they're outright making said motivations clear is nothing but petty bigotry.

Those people know exactly what values and what history they're celebrating or appear to celebrate by flying a confederate flag. And anyone who doesn't is a fucking idiot.

If your only argument is "fucking idiot", then, well, uh, okay.

Strawman.

If you don't want to appear like a racist and/or slavery-advocate, then don't fly the flag representing that. It's as easy as that.

If you don't want to appear like a racist or slavery-advocate, don't be a racist or slavery-advocate. What flag you fly is irrelevant here to people who aren't bigoted SJWs.

Assuming the rebel flag only represents evil things is SJWing.



Here's the thing, I get the idea of Southern Pride.. but why tie it to the Confederacy? You can argue states rights until you're blue in the face, but the right they were protecting more than anything was slavery. I suggest you read one of Frederick Douglass' autobiographies for a firsthand account of just how inhumane the practice really was, which lately seems to be forgotten, and you start getting dipshits saying that life was better for them as slaves and that they were happy.
Shoujo 1 hour ago#42
It's just a flag. You can engage the millions of southerners who don't disavow it in an honest discussion about its complex history, the sins it represents, etc., but to compare them to Nazis or call them ignorant/stupid is obviously going to be a roadblock to understanding them or getting them to understand you. That's my position as a yankee.
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