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Showing posts with label Maduro. Show all posts

August 2, 2017

Another victory for Socialism! Maduro becomes dictator of Venezuela

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  3. Another victory for Socialism! Maduro becomes dictator of Venezuela
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-idUSKBN1AG0N0?il=0

Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro on Monday celebrated the election of a new legislative superbody that is expected to give the ruling Socialist Party sweeping powers and mocked U.S. criticism that the vote was an affront to democracy.

At least 10 people were killed on Sunday in protests against the unpopular Maduro, who insists the new body known as the constituent assembly will bring peace after four months of protests that have killed more than 120 people.

Opposition parties sat out the election, saying it was rigged to increase Maduro's powers. They decried the vote as a fraud and called on supporters to protest again as of midday.

Countries across the Americas, as well as the European Union, denounced the creation of the assembly, which will have the power to rewrite the constitution.

The United States - the top market for the OPEC nation's oil - called the vote a sham, and officials in Washington said they were preparing oil-sector sanctions.

"A spokesperson for emperor Donald Trump said that they would not recognize the results of Venezuela's constituent assembly election," Maduro told a crowd of cheering supporters following the completion of the vote.

Turns out, when you give the government control of basically everything, the people who control the government have an easier time of taking that power for themselves.

Ho-ly s***, how many times does this need to happen before people get that socialism is a f***ing horrible concept?
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
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Doom_Art 1 day ago#2
Sephiroth1288 posted...
Turns out, when you give the government control of basically everything, the people who control the government have an easier time of taking that power for themselves.

i mean giving populist demagogues control of the government always ends badly. Left or right.
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NadYobWoc 1 day ago#3
Mal_Fet topic
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Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#4
Doom_Art posted...
Sephiroth1288 posted...
Turns out, when you give the government control of basically everything, the people who control the government have an easier time of taking that power for themselves.

i mean giving populist demagogues control of the government always ends badly. Left or right.

But it keeps happening with leftist governments. It's almost an inevitability.
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
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Doom_Art 1 day ago#5
Sephiroth1288 posted...
But it keeps happening with leftist governments. It's almost an inevitability.

I mean it's happened with right wing governments as well. 

It's not about left-right, it's about whether you respect democratic values.
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not true socialotsman
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NadYobWoc 1 day ago#7
Sephiroth1288 posted...
Doom_Art posted...
Sephiroth1288 posted...
Turns out, when you give the government control of basically everything, the people who control the government have an easier time of taking that power for themselves.

i mean giving populist demagogues control of the government always ends badly. Left or right.

But it keeps happening with leftist governments. It's almost an inevitability.

Confirmation bias
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NadYobWoc 1 day ago#8
darkphoenix181 posted...
not true socialotsman

Vague concepts like nationality arent comparable to economics.
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Doom_Art 1 day ago#9
darkphoenix181 posted...
not true socialotsman

I mean I could point out countries that have adopted socialist policies or policies that would be considered socialist without sliding into a dictatorship. 

On the flip I could also name some countries that slanted right without turning into a dictatorship.
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Sojy 1 day ago#10
Sephiroth1288 posted...
Ho-ly s***, how many times does this need to happen before people get that socialism is a f***ing horrible concept?

Find a better alternative than the free market f***ing the poor over then.
Doom_Art posted...
darkphoenix181 posted...
not true socialotsman

I mean I could point out countries that have adopted socialist policies or policies that would be considered socialist without sliding into a dictatorship. 

On the flip I could also name some countries that slanted right without turning into a dictatorship.


you mean the capitalist nordic model?
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Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#13
Doom_Art posted...
I mean it's happened with right wing governments as well.

Not really. I mean the go-to example of a right wing fascist government is Nazi Germany, but Nazi Germany had a central government that controlled what goods were to be produced and at what price and set wages. 

Are you getting this? The most prevalent example of a "right-wing fascist government" was more socialist than any Scandinavian country is (or ever was)!!
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(edited 1 day ago)reportquote
Good thing people don't want socialism and that it's completely irrelevant to becoming a dictator.
Doom_Art posted...
Sephiroth1288 posted...
But it keeps happening with leftist governments. It's almost an inevitability.

I mean it's happened with right wing governments as well. 

It's not about left-right, it's about whether you respect democratic values.

Authoritarianism is neither and both right and left.
Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#16
Questionmarktarius posted...
Doom_Art posted...
Sephiroth1288 posted...
But it keeps happening with leftist governments. It's almost an inevitability.

I mean it's happened with right wing governments as well. 

It's not about left-right, it's about whether you respect democratic values.

Authoritarianism is neither and both right and left.

You're absolutely right, but once again:
Turns out, when you give the government control of basically everything, the people who control the government have an easier time of taking that power for themselves.
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
Friend Code: 2723-9696-7248
NadYobWoc 1 day ago#17
darkphoenix181 posted...
Doom_Art posted...
darkphoenix181 posted...
not true socialotsman

I mean I could point out countries that have adopted socialist policies or policies that would be considered socialist without sliding into a dictatorship. 

On the flip I could also name some countries that slanted right without turning into a dictatorship.


you mean the capitalist nordic model?

This is a weird route to take acter trying to level a no true Scotsman accusation.
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Sephiroth1288 posted...
Doom_Art posted...
I mean it's happened with right wing governments as well.

Not really. I mean the go-to example of a right wing fascist government is Nazi Germany, but Nazi Germany had a central government that controlled what goods were to be produced and at what price and set wages. 

Are you getting this? The most prevalent example of a "right-wing fascist government" was more socialist than any Scandinavian country is (or ever was)!!

Mal going back to the Nazi Germany Was Left well I see.
hockeybub89 posted...
Good thing people don't want socialism and that it's completely irrelevant to becoming a dictator.


that would be a good thing but I am not so sure your statement about people don't want it being true

a mix of free market and socialism is the best ofc

break up monopolies like the big internet companies!
sigless user is me or am I?
"You can't compare the successes of Scandinavian socialism to America, we're two different cultures."


"SEE! See what happens when you let socialism run wild?! This is why we should never allow it in America."
Gt: justaguy3492
Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#21
hockeybub89 posted...
Sephiroth1288 posted...
Doom_Art posted...
I mean it's happened with right wing governments as well.

Not really. I mean the go-to example of a right wing fascist government is Nazi Germany, but Nazi Germany had a central government that controlled what goods were to be produced and at what price and set wages. 

Are you getting this? The most prevalent example of a "right-wing fascist government" was more socialist than any Scandinavian country is (or ever was)!!

Mal going back to the Nazi Germany Was Left well I see.

Nazi Germany was more socialist than the "socialist" Scandinavian countries, for exactly the reasons I outlined.

Go ahead. Try to deny it.
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
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Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#22
justaguy3492 posted...
"You can't compare the successes of Scandinavian socialism to America, we're two different cultures."

The Scandinavian countries are not socialist. They have socialist policies that are propped up by an economy that is entirely capitalist.
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Doom_Art 1 day ago#23
Sephiroth1288 posted...
but Nazi Germany had a central government that controlled what goods were to be produced and at what price and set wages. 

I mean the Western Allies did that as well. Are you unfamiliar with the concept of Total War during WWII?
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Mal_Fet: believes Nazi Germany was a bunch of leftists and that NATO wasn't a thing before 9/11
Sojy 1 day ago#25
darkphoenix181 posted...
Doom_Art posted...
darkphoenix181 posted...
not true socialotsman

I mean I could point out countries that have adopted socialist policies or policies that would be considered socialist without sliding into a dictatorship. 

On the flip I could also name some countries that slanted right without turning into a dictatorship.


you mean the capitalist nordic model?

If you're gonna call that capitalist, then you can't call American politicians socialists, as 99% of the time they don't even want America to offer as many subsidies as the Nordic model does. It's either-or bro.
darkphoenix181 posted...
hockeybub89 posted...
Good thing people don't want socialism and that it's completely irrelevant to becoming a dictator.


that would be a good thing but I am not so sure your statement about people don't want it being true

a mix of free market and socialism is the best ofc

break up monopolies like the big internet companies!

By people I mean most people. None of the countries people pine for America to be like are truly socialist. The average person is not an ideologue.
NadYobWoc 1 day ago#27
Sephiroth1288 posted...
hockeybub89 posted...
Sephiroth1288 posted...
Doom_Art posted...
I mean it's happened with right wing governments as well.

Not really. I mean the go-to example of a right wing fascist government is Nazi Germany, but Nazi Germany had a central government that controlled what goods were to be produced and at what price and set wages. 

Are you getting this? The most prevalent example of a "right-wing fascist government" was more socialist than any Scandinavian country is (or ever was)!!

Mal going back to the Nazi Germany Was Left well I see.

Nazi Germany was more socialist than the "socialist" Scandinavian countries, for exactly the reasons I outlined.

Go ahead. Try to deny it.

The issues with Nazism were based in authoritarianism, not socialism. You dont have a point.
Cowboy Dan's a major player in the cowboy scene
Sephiroth1288 posted...
hockeybub89 posted...
Sephiroth1288 posted...
Doom_Art posted...
I mean it's happened with right wing governments as well.

Not really. I mean the go-to example of a right wing fascist government is Nazi Germany, but Nazi Germany had a central government that controlled what goods were to be produced and at what price and set wages. 

Are you getting this? The most prevalent example of a "right-wing fascist government" was more socialist than any Scandinavian country is (or ever was)!!

Mal going back to the Nazi Germany Was Left well I see.

Nazi Germany was more socialist than the "socialist" Scandinavian countries, for exactly the reasons I outlined.

Go ahead. Try to deny it.

Deny. Any extremely controlling government is left-wing in your eyes and that is mind numbingly stupid. Both extremes are terrible, but Nazi Germany's fits neatly in what is considered right extremism.

But we all know Mal_Fet is one of the few political scholars not beholden to liberal propaganda
(edited 1 day ago)reportquote
Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#29
Doom_Art posted...
I mean the Western Allies did that as well.

Did I ever say their countries weren't socialist at the time?

It's a good thing they reverted back to capitalism after the war, huh?
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iPhone_7 1 day ago#30
Checkmate liberals
#MAGA
Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#31
NadYobWoc posted...

The issues with Nazism were based in authoritarianism, not socialism. You dont have a point.

Venezuela is just one more example of how these two things go hand-in-hand :)
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
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NadYobWoc posted...
darkphoenix181 posted...
Doom_Art posted...
darkphoenix181 posted...
not true socialotsman

I mean I could point out countries that have adopted socialist policies or policies that would be considered socialist without sliding into a dictatorship. 

On the flip I could also name some countries that slanted right without turning into a dictatorship.


you mean the capitalist nordic model?

This is a weird route to take acter trying to level a no true Scotsman accusation.


only to people who never read up on it and just hear talking points that it is a socialist paradise

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
The Nordic model (also called Nordic capitalism[1] or Nordic social democracy)[2][3] refers to the economic and social policies common to the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway, Iceland, and Sweden). This includes a combination of free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state and collective bargaining at the national level.[4][5] The Nordic model began to earn attention after World War II.[6]


Little product market regulation. Nordic countries rank very high in product market freedom according to OECD rankings.[11]



The Nordic model is underpinned by a free market capitalist economic system that features high degrees of private ownership[5] with the exception of Norway, which includes a large number of state-owned enterprises and state ownership in publicly listed firms.[26]

The Nordic model is described as a system of competitive capitalism combined with a large percentage of the population employed by the public sector (roughly 30% of the work force).[27] In 2013, The Economist described its countries as "stout free-traders who resist the temptation to intervene even to protect iconic companies" while also looking for ways to temper capitalism's harsher effects, and declared that the Nordic countries "are probably the best-governed in the world".[27][28] Some economists have referred to the Nordic economic model as a form of "cuddly" capitalism, with low levels of inequality, generous welfare states and reduced concentration of top incomes, and contrast it with the more "cut-throat" capitalism of the United States, which has high levels of inequality and a larger concentration of top incomes.[11][29][30]
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(edited 1 day ago)reportquote
sktgamer_13dude posted...
Mal_Fet: believes Nazi Germany was a bunch of leftists and that NATO wasn't a thing before 9/11

3uZaEKf

"Are the nazi's known for being anti-gay?"
- literal garbage
NadYobWoc 1 day ago#34
Sephiroth1288 posted...
NadYobWoc posted...

The issues with Nazism were based in authoritarianism, not socialism. You dont have a point.

Venezuela is just one more example of how these two things go hand-in-hand :)

Confirmation bias
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Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#35
NadYobWoc posted...
Sephiroth1288 posted...
NadYobWoc posted...

The issues with Nazism were based in authoritarianism, not socialism. You dont have a point.

Venezuela is just one more example of how these two things go hand-in-hand :)

Confirmation bias

when 100% of socialist countries turn out authoritarian, it's not a bias anymore.
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Blaming socialism for dictators is a misunderstanding of causality.
Socialism is merely a step in the process, as a populist appeal to cede power to a savior who will somehow magically fix everything, if only he were granted the authority to really deal with the evils of [insert 'evil' here] - temporarily, of course.
(edited 1 day ago)reportquote
Sojy posted...
If you're gonna call that capitalist, then you can't call American politicians socialists, as 99% of the time they don't even want America to offer as many subsidies as the Nordic model does. It's either-or bro.


wikipedia calls it capitalist

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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Doom_Art 1 day ago#38
mal's gone crazy hasn't he?
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NadYobWoc 1 day ago#39
darkphoenix181 posted...
NadYobWoc posted...
darkphoenix181 posted...
you mean the capitalist nordic model?

This is a weird route to take acter trying to level a no true Scotsman accusation.


only to people who never read up on it and just hear talking points that it is a socialist paradise

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
The Nordic model (also called Nordic capitalism[1] or Nordic social democracy)[2][3] refers to the economic and social policies common to the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway, Iceland, and Sweden). This includes a combination of free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state and collective bargaining at the national level.[4][5] The Nordic model began to earn attention after World War II.[6]


Little product market regulation. Nordic countries rank very high in product market freedom according to OECD rankings.[11]



The Nordic model is underpinned by a free market capitalist economic system that features high degrees of private ownership[5] with the exception of Norway, which includes a large number of state-owned enterprises and state ownership in publicly listed firms.[26]

The Nordic model is described as a system of competitive capitalism combined with a large percentage of the population employed by the public sector (roughly 30% of the work force).[27] In 2013, The Economist described its countries as "stout free-traders who resist the temptation to intervene even to protect iconic companies" while also looking for ways to temper capitalism's harsher effects, and declared that the Nordic countries "are probably the best-governed in the world".[27][28] Some economists have referred to the Nordic economic model as a form of "cuddly" capitalism, with low levels of inequality, generous welfare states and reduced concentration of top incomes, and contrast it with the more "cut-throat" capitalism of the United States, which has high levels of inequality and a larger concentration of top incomes.[11][29][30]

I see you still havent overcome the urge to argue exclusively through strawmen and non-sequiturs.
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what do actual socialists say about the capitalist nordic model?

The socialist economists John Roemer and Pranab Bardhan criticize Nordic-style social democracy by questioning its effectiveness at promoting relative egalitarianism as well as its sustainability. They point out that social democracy requires a strong labor movement to sustain the heavy redistribution required, arguing that it is idealistic to think such redistribution can be accomplished in other countries with weaker labor movements. They note that, even in the Scandinavian countries, social democracy has been in decline since the weakening of the labor movement, arguing that the sustainability of social democracy is limited. Roemer and Bardham argue that establishing a market socialist economy by changing enterprise ownership would be more effective at promoting egalitarianism than social democratic redistribution.[53]


huh why would actual socialists say this!
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NadYobWoc 1 day ago#41
darkphoenix181 posted...
Sojy posted...
If you're gonna call that capitalist, then you can't call American politicians socialists, as 99% of the time they don't even want America to offer as many subsidies as the Nordic model does. It's either-or bro.


wikipedia calls it capitalist

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

That's not a response to his post. Strawmen and non-sequiturs.
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NadYobWoc posted...

I see you still havent overcome the urge to argue exclusively through strawmen and non-sequiturs.


I see you still cannot provide counterpoints when faced with evidence vs. you having no evidence.
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Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#43
"Nazi Germany fulfills more requirements of socialism than Nordic countries do, and here's why"

Doomy: You're crazy!
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NadYobWoc 1 day ago#44
darkphoenix181 posted...
NadYobWoc posted...

I see you still havent overcome the urge to argue exclusively through strawmen and non-sequiturs.


I see you still cannot provide counterpoints when faced with evidence vs. you having no evidence.

Evidence of what? No one tried to claim Scandinavia was strictly socialist.
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NadYobWoc 1 day ago#45
Sephiroth1288 posted...
"Nazi Germany fulfills more requirements of socialism than Nordic countries do, and here's why"

Doomy: You're crazy!

That's not what he said, he pointed out the similarities found in allied war time economies.
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Sephiroth1288 posted...
"Nazi Germany fulfills more requirements of socialism than Nordic countries do, and here's why"

Doomy: You're crazy!

Um I checked Wikipedia and it says that the nazis are far right I don't know who to believe someone please send help I'm freaking out I thought mal knew everything
- literal garbage
Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#47
NadYobWoc posted...
darkphoenix181 posted...
NadYobWoc posted...

I see you still havent overcome the urge to argue exclusively through strawmen and non-sequiturs.


I see you still cannot provide counterpoints when faced with evidence vs. you having no evidence.

Evidence of what? No one tried to claim Scandinavia was strictly socialist.

Nor did I

I merely pointed out that the one example people have of a fascist right-wing government had more socialist qualities than the left's favorite examples of countries where their ideas actually work to some degree.
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Friend Code: 2723-9696-7248
Left-wing and right-wing are such meaningless terms
Shenmue II = best game of all time
Shenmue = 2nd best game of all time
It's just proof that being idealistic can be very harmful. Structure and order exist for a reason. Take that away and you have anarchy. These people want to make capitalism look bad (kek) and pre-communism look good.
Trump 2020
NadYobWoc 1 day ago#50
Sephiroth1288 posted...
NadYobWoc posted...
darkphoenix181 posted...
NadYobWoc posted...

I see you still havent overcome the urge to argue exclusively through strawmen and non-sequiturs.


I see you still cannot provide counterpoints when faced with evidence vs. you having no evidence.

Evidence of what? No one tried to claim Scandinavia was strictly socialist.

Nor did I

I merely pointed out that the one example people have of a fascist right-wing government had more socialist qualities than the left's favorite examples of countries where their ideas actually work to some degree.

Wasnt talking to you bud. Regardless, that's not the only example. Italy and Spain are two other contemporary examples, and thats just from the same part of the world at the same time. 

Again, confirmation bias.
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  3. Another victory for Socialism! Maduro becomes dictator of Venezuela
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    3. Another victory for Socialism! Maduro becomes dictator of Venezuela
    NadYobWoc 1 day ago#51
    Damn_Underscore posted...
    Left-wing and right-wing are such meaningless terms

    They really, really are.
    Cowboy Dan's a major player in the cowboy scene
    Damn_Underscore posted...
    Left-wing and right-wing are such meaningless terms

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
    NadYobWoc posted...
    darkphoenix181 posted...
    NadYobWoc posted...

    I see you still havent overcome the urge to argue exclusively through strawmen and non-sequiturs.


    I see you still cannot provide counterpoints when faced with evidence vs. you having no evidence.

    Evidence of what? No one tried to claim Scandinavia was strictly socialist.


    You got irked that I called it capitalist.

    Yet, it is. Wiki says it is.

    The definition of socialism says it is:

    Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim to establish them.

    Social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms.[5][14][15]


    and yet in the nordic model, the means of production is owned by whom?
    can you fill in the blank?
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    luigi13579 1 day ago#54
    darkphoenix181 posted...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
    The Nordic model (also called Nordic capitalism[1] or Nordic social democracy)[2][3] refers to the economic and social policies common to the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway, Iceland, and Sweden). This includes a combination of free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state and collective bargaining at the national level.[4][5] The Nordic model began to earn attention after World War II.[6]

    Little product market regulation. Nordic countries rank very high in product market freedom according to OECD rankings.[11]

    The Nordic model is underpinned by a free market capitalist economic system that features high degrees of private ownership[5] with the exception of Norway, which includes a large number of state-owned enterprises and state ownership in publicly listed firms.[26]

    The Nordic model is described as a system of competitive capitalism combined with a large percentage of the population employed by the public sector (roughly 30% of the work force).[27] In 2013, The Economist described its countries as "stout free-traders who resist the temptation to intervene even to protect iconic companies" while also looking for ways to temper capitalism's harsher effects, and declared that the Nordic countries "are probably the best-governed in the world".[27][28] Some economists have referred to the Nordic economic model as a form of "cuddly" capitalism, with low levels of inequality, generous welfare states and reduced concentration of top incomes, and contrast it with the more "cut-throat" capitalism of the United States, which has high levels of inequality and a larger concentration of top incomes.[11][29][30]

    I've bolded the large parts of the above that you ignored.

    The Nordic countries have elements of both capitalism and socialism (they aren't mutually exclusive). I don't know anyone who would argue to the contrary.
    @luigi13579 posted...
    darkphoenix181 posted...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
    The Nordic model (also called Nordic capitalism[1] or Nordic social democracy)[2][3] refers to the economic and social policies common to the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway, Iceland, and Sweden). This includes a combination of free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state and collective bargaining at the national level.[4][5] The Nordic model began to earn attention after World War II.[6]

    Little product market regulation. Nordic countries rank very high in product market freedom according to OECD rankings.[11]

    The Nordic model is underpinned by a free market capitalist economic system that features high degrees of private ownership[5] with the exception of Norway, which includes a large number of state-owned enterprises and state ownership in publicly listed firms.[26]

    The Nordic model is described as a system of competitive capitalism combined with a large percentage of the population employed by the public sector (roughly 30% of the work force).[27] In 2013, The Economist described its countries as "stout free-traders who resist the temptation to intervene even to protect iconic companies" while also looking for ways to temper capitalism's harsher effects, and declared that the Nordic countries "are probably the best-governed in the world".[27][28] Some economists have referred to the Nordic economic model as a form of "cuddly" capitalism, with low levels of inequality, generous welfare states and reduced concentration of top incomes, and contrast it with the more "cut-throat" capitalism of the United States, which has high levels of inequality and a larger concentration of top incomes.[11][29][30]

    I've bolded the large parts of the above that you ignored.

    The Nordic countries have elements of both capitalism and socialism (they aren't mutually exclusive). I don't know anyone who would argue to the contrary.


    who owns the means of production?
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    luigi13579 1 day ago#56
    darkphoenix181 posted...
    who owns the means of production?

    In Norway, both the state and private companies, according to the information that you even quoted.
    (edited 1 day ago)reportquote
    Sephiroth1288 posted...
    NadYobWoc posted...
    darkphoenix181 posted...
    NadYobWoc posted...

    I see you still havent overcome the urge to argue exclusively through strawmen and non-sequiturs.


    I see you still cannot provide counterpoints when faced with evidence vs. you having no evidence.

    Evidence of what? No one tried to claim Scandinavia was strictly socialist.

    Nor did I

    I merely pointed out that the one example people have of a fascist right-wing government had more socialist qualities than the left's favorite examples of countries where their ideas actually work to some degree.

    Wait. So is socialism right-wing or were the Nazis left-wing?
    Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#58
    literal_garbage posted...
    Um I checked Wikipedia

    SJW logic, folks.

    hockeybub89 posted...
    Wait. So is socialism right-wing or were the Nazis left-wing?

    The Nazis were further to the left than Scandinavian countries are.

    Let me know if you need this put in shorter words.
    The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
    Friend Code: 2723-9696-7248
    (edited 1 day ago)reportquote
    Sephiroth1288 posted...
    literal_garbage posted...
    Um I checked Wikipedia

    SJW logic, folks.

    Um they linked to this thing that had a bunch of paper in it with a lot of words and I don't know who to believe anymore what do I do
    - literal garbage
    Antifar 1 day ago#60
    Going to leave this here
    http://mattbruenig.com/2017/07/28/nordic-socialism-is-realer-than-you-think/

    Even more interesting than Nordic labor market institutions is Nordic state ownership. Collective ownership over capital is the hallmark of that old-school socialism that is supposed to have been entirely discredited. And yet, such public ownership figures prominently in present-day Norway and Finland and has had a role in the other two Nordic countries as well, especially in Sweden where the government embarked upon a now-defunct plan to socialize the whole of Swedish industry into wage-earner funds just a few decades ago.

    The governments of Norway and Finland own financial assets equal to 330 percent and 130 percent of each country’s respective GDP. In the US, the same figure is just 26 percent.

    State-owned enterprises (SOEs), defined as commercial enterprises in which the state has a controlling stake or large minority stake, are also far more prevalent in the Nordic countries. In 2012, the value of Norwegian SOEs was equal to 87.9 percent of the country’s GDP. For Finland, that figure was 52.3 percent. In the US, it was not even 1 percent.
    kin to all that throbs
    luigi13579 posted...
    darkphoenix181 posted...
    who owns the means of production?

    In Norway, both the state and private companies.


    thanks for answering

    while you are correct, this doesn't explain that the state owns 30% while the rest of the 60%+ is private

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Norway
    The role of the public sector. The ideological divide between socialist and non-socialist views on public ownership has decreased over time. The Norwegian government has sought to reduce its ownership over companies that require access to private capital markets, and there is an increasing emphasis on government facilitating entrepreneurship rather than controlling (or restricting) capital formation. A residual distrust of the "profit motive" persists, and Norwegian companies are heavily regulated, especially with respect to labor relations.
    sigless user is me or am I?
    (edited 1 day ago)reportquote
    @Antifar posted...
    Going to leave this here
    http://mattbruenig.com/2017/07/28/nordic-socialism-is-realer-than-you-think/

    Even more interesting than Nordic labor market institutions is Nordic state ownership. Collective ownership over capital is the hallmark of that old-school socialism that is supposed to have been entirely discredited. And yet, such public ownership figures prominently in present-day Norway and Finland and has had a role in the other two Nordic countries as well, especially in Sweden where the government embarked upon a now-defunct plan to socialize the whole of Swedish industry into wage-earner funds just a few decades ago.

    The governments of Norway and Finland own financial assets equal to 330 percent and 130 percent of each country’s respective GDP. In the US, the same figure is just 26 percent.

    State-owned enterprises (SOEs), defined as commercial enterprises in which the state has a controlling stake or large minority stake, are also far more prevalent in the Nordic countries. In 2012, the value of Norwegian SOEs was equal to 87.9 percent of the country’s GDP. For Finland, that figure was 52.3 percent. In the US, it was not even 1 percent.


    so to clarify

    you are arguing that these countries are more socialist than capitalist?
    sigless user is me or am I?
    Sephiroth1288 posted...
    literal_garbage posted...
    Um I checked Wikipedia

    SJW logic, folks.

    hockeybub89 posted...
    Wait. So is socialism right-wing or were the Nazis left-wing?

    The Nazis were further to the left than Scandinavian countries are.

    Let me know if you need this put in shorter words.

    How do you figure? And why has no one else come to this conclusion?

    Also, what makes you more of a valid voice than sourced entries on Wikipedia? You and maybe some fringe right-wing blogs are about all that assert the Nazis as left-wing
    Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#64
    hockeybub89 posted...
    How do you figure? And why has no one else come to this conclusion?

    Plenty of people recognize that the Nazis were largely socialist.

    Maybe you should stop getting all your information from TYT and Salon (lookin at you, @Antifar )
    The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
    Friend Code: 2723-9696-7248
    Sephiroth1288 posted...
    hockeybub89 posted...
    How do you figure? And why has no one else come to this conclusion?

    Plenty of people recognize that the Nazis were largely socialist.

    Maybe you should stop getting all your information from TYT and Salon (lookin at you, @Antifar )


    nazi were fascist

    left version of fascist is communist

    fascist and communist do many similar things if that is what is confusing you
    but there are fundamental differences
    sigless user is me or am I?
    (edited 1 day ago)reportquote
    Sephiroth1288 posted...
    hockeybub89 posted...
    How do you figure? And why has no one else come to this conclusion?

    Plenty of people recognize that the Nazis were largely socialist


    Uh oh, weasel word alert!
    - literal garbage
    Antifar 1 day ago#67
    Sephiroth1288 posted...
    Maybe you should stop getting all your information from TYT and Salon (lookin at you, @Antifar )

    I genuinely don't know where you get the idea that I'm a regular reader of these outlets. Like 60% of the s*** I post here is NYT/Wapo. In These Times, Dissent, and Jacobin are far closer to my ideological bent than Young Turks and Salon. Does TYT even have articles? I basically never watch videos for this sort of thing.
    kin to all that throbs
    (edited 1 day ago)reportquote
    By that logic, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is an argument against democracy, and any counterargument is a No True Democracy fallacy.
    Sick liaisons raise this monumental mark
    The sun sets forever over Blackwater Park
    Sephiroth1288 posted...
    hockeybub89 posted...
    How do you figure? And why has no one else come to this conclusion?

    Plenty of people recognize that the Nazis were largely socialist.

    Maybe you should stop getting all your information from TYT and Salon (lookin at you, @Antifar )

    Yes, only Salon has called Nazi Germany right-wing. Yawn. "They were extremely nationalistic, authoritarian, and anti-equality but they claimed to be for the people and owned everything, so they were more left than the socialist paradises that liberals cheer about!" Dude.
    CircleOfManias posted...
    By that logic, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is an argument against democracy, and any counterargument is a No True Democracy fallacy.

    I'm pretty sure Mal has called them left-wing.
    CircleOfManias posted...
    By that logic, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is an argument against democracy, and any counterargument is a No True Democracy fallacy.


    Your choices being "Kim" or "labor camp" is still technically democracy. Those are incidentally the same places where the winner gets 99% of the votes, with a voter participation rate also in the high 90s.
    (edited 1 day ago)reportquote
    Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#72
    hockeybub89 posted...
    "They were extremely nationalistic, authoritarian, and anti-equality but they claimed to be for the people and owned everything,

    Literally none of these things disqualifies them from being leftist.
    The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
    Friend Code: 2723-9696-7248
    hockeybub89 posted...
    Sephiroth1288 posted...
    hockeybub89 posted...
    How do you figure? And why has no one else come to this conclusion?

    Plenty of people recognize that the Nazis were largely socialist.

    Maybe you should stop getting all your information from TYT and Salon (lookin at you, @Antifar )

    Yes, only Salon has called Nazi Germany right-wing. Yawn. "They were extremely nationalistic, authoritarian, and anti-equality but they claimed to be for the people and owned everything, so they were more left than the socialist paradises that liberals cheer about!" Dude.

    academic sources are for cucks, don't ya know?
    - literal garbage
    Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#74
    literal_garbage posted...
    hockeybub89 posted...
    Sephiroth1288 posted...
    hockeybub89 posted...
    How do you figure? And why has no one else come to this conclusion?

    Plenty of people recognize that the Nazis were largely socialist.

    Maybe you should stop getting all your information from TYT and Salon (lookin at you, @Antifar )

    Yes, only Salon has called Nazi Germany right-wing. Yawn. "They were extremely nationalistic, authoritarian, and anti-equality but they claimed to be for the people and owned everything, so they were more left than the socialist paradises that liberals cheer about!" Dude.

    academic sources are for cucks, don't ya know?

    He literally use the salon writer as a source.

    How "academic"
    The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
    Friend Code: 2723-9696-7248
    I'm not seeing a ton of salon links on this wikipedia page
    - literal garbage
    Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#76
    literal_garbage posted...
    I'm not seeing a ton of salon links on this wikipedia page

    I'm not seeing any of links on the wiki that show how Nazi Germany was right wing despite the state controlling all the means of production. 

    Or how they are right wing at all. The statement calling Nazism right wing has no citation.
    The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
    Friend Code: 2723-9696-7248
    Sephiroth1288 posted...
    literal_garbage posted...
    I'm not seeing a ton of salon links on this wikipedia page

    I'm not seeing any of links on the wiki that show how Nazi Germany was right wing despite the state controlling all the means of production. 

    Or how they are right wing at all. The statement calling Nazism right wing has no citation.

    Did you try looking at the massive box on the right, sweetie?
    - literal garbage
    Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#78
    literal_garbage posted...
    Sephiroth1288 posted...
    literal_garbage posted...
    I'm not seeing a ton of salon links on this wikipedia page

    I'm not seeing any of links on the wiki that show how Nazi Germany was right wing despite the state controlling all the means of production. 

    Or how they are right wing at all. The statement calling Nazism right wing has no citation.

    Did you try looking at the massive box on the right, sweetie?

    Nope, no citation. But feel free to post the citation you think proves the Nazis are right wing.
    The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
    Friend Code: 2723-9696-7248
    http://imgur.com/a/0OJNw

    Those numbers next to "far right" is what we call a citation. I should've been clearer, I know this is tough for you
    - literal garbage
    Sephiroth1288 posted...
    hockeybub89 posted...
    "They were extremely nationalistic, authoritarian, and anti-equality but they claimed to be for the people and owned everything,

    Literally none of these things disqualifies them from being leftist.

    Government controlling things doesn't disqualify them from being right-wing either. For someone living outside the political dichotomy, you sure go out of your way to blame everything on one side.

    Again, why have you come to this obvious conclusion that historical and political scholars have not? What's your secret?
    Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#81
    literal_garbage posted...
    http://imgur.com/a/0OJNw

    Those numbers next to "far right" is what we call a citation. I should've been clearer, I know this is tough for you

    You didn't even look at those citations, did you? 

    How embarrassing......
    The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
    Friend Code: 2723-9696-7248
    How far left are Sharia-ruled countries, Mal? The government is Islam and Islam tells everyone what to do.
    Not to mention this one:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nazism&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop#Position_within_the_political_spectrum

    All of these damn dirty scholars with their history and s***
    - literal garbage
    (edited 1 day ago)reportquote
    Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#84
    literal_garbage posted...
    Not to mention this one:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nazism&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop#Position_within_the_political_spectrum

    All of these damn dirty scholars with their history and s***

    Lol

    Nazis = far right because right = raysism! Nope. Go to some actual leftist forums sometime and see how quickly they disprove this s***. 

    This is the problem with using a community-edited website to argue a point. You wind up with nonsense conclusions like "it's not possible for a socialist to be racist".
    The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
    Friend Code: 2723-9696-7248
    Have these guys been screaming at each other for the entire topic? No way I'm going back through to check.
    (edited 1 day ago)reportquote
    Sephiroth1288 posted...
    literal_garbage posted...
    Not to mention this one:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nazism&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop#Position_within_the_political_spectrum

    All of these damn dirty scholars with their history and s***

    Lol

    Nazis = far right because right = raysism! Nope. Go to some actual leftist forums sometime and see how quickly they disprove this s***. 

    This is the problem with using a community-edited website to argue a point. You wind up with nonsense conclusions like "it's not possible for a socialist to be racist".

    Wait, sourced Wikipedia articles and the general consensus on Nazis means nothing, but "You can find leftists on forums that act like Nazis" is supposed to show Nazis are leftists?

    Is Richard Spencer hated by the left because he is the wrong type of leftist?

    I repeat, what is this secret you found that people didn't think of before you? You think you're the first person to see "socialism" in their name and know there was government control?

    "I don't care about the far-right elements of Nazi Germany. Their economy wasn't capitalist, so they are left-wing no matter what."
    (edited 1 day ago)reportquote
    Mal is clearly smarter than people who have spent their career studying and writing books about this. Those leftist cucks have no idea what they're talking about!
    - literal garbage
    Antifar 1 day ago#88
    The argument over where Nazi Germany belongs on the political spectrum feels kinda silly to me. The problem with Nazi Germany wasn't that they're +9.5, +1.3 on some chart, it's that they killed millions of people
    kin to all that throbs
    NadYobWoc 1 day ago#89
    darkphoenix181 posted...
    Sephiroth1288 posted...
    hockeybub89 posted...
    How do you figure? And why has no one else come to this conclusion?

    Plenty of people recognize that the Nazis were largely socialist.

    Maybe you should stop getting all your information from TYT and Salon (lookin at you, @Antifar )


    nazi were fascist

    left version of fascist is communist

    fascist and communist do many similar things if that is what is confusing you
    but there are fundamental differences

    This is a gross oversimplification
    Cowboy Dan's a major player in the cowboy scene
    Socialism does not work, except in tiny doses. I think this offends a lot of people because socialism (and communism maybe moreso) sounds nice on paper. It's a flowery, idealistic concept that generally ends in a bloody mess for everyone involved, eventually.
    ...
    Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#91
    hockeybub89 posted...
    Wait, sourced Wikipedia articles and the general consensus on Nazis means nothing,

    If Nazis meeting the definition of socialism means nothing then certainly neither does one reference on a community-edited website equating right-wing politics with racism. 

    Someone tell all those high school communist losers wearing Che Guevara shirts that they're wearing the visage of a filthy right winger!
    The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
    Friend Code: 2723-9696-7248
    (edited 1 day ago)reportquote
    f***ing Wikipedia SHILLS writing all of these books and articles and getting them published just to LIE on Wikipedia

    How deep does this go!?!?
    - literal garbage
    Sephiroth1288 posted...
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-idUSKBN1AG0N0?il=0

    Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro on Monday celebrated the election of a new legislative superbody that is expected to give the ruling Socialist Party sweeping powers and mocked U.S. criticism that the vote was an affront to democracy.

    At least 10 people were killed on Sunday in protests against the unpopular Maduro, who insists the new body known as the constituent assembly will bring peace after four months of protests that have killed more than 120 people.

    Opposition parties sat out the election, saying it was rigged to increase Maduro's powers. They decried the vote as a fraud and called on supporters to protest again as of midday.

    Countries across the Americas, as well as the European Union, denounced the creation of the assembly, which will have the power to rewrite the constitution.

    The United States - the top market for the OPEC nation's oil - called the vote a sham, and officials in Washington said they were preparing oil-sector sanctions.

    "A spokesperson for emperor Donald Trump said that they would not recognize the results of Venezuela's constituent assembly election," Maduro told a crowd of cheering supporters following the completion of the vote.

    Turns out, when you give the government control of basically everything, the people who control the government have an easier time of taking that power for themselves.

    Ho-ly s***, how many times does this need to happen before people get that socialism is a f***ing horrible concept?


    Still better than Trump
    Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#94
    literal_garbage posted...
    f***ing Wikipedia SHILLS writing all of these books and articles and getting them published just to LIE on Wikipedia

    How deep does this go!?!?

    Racism doesn't make a government right wing. That's not debatable, it's just a fact. 

    Now please find me the part of your Wikipedia article that explains how the Nazis weren't socialist despite meeting the definition of socialism.
    The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
    Friend Code: 2723-9696-7248
    mal_fet once again ignoring sources and people smarter than him so he can put his feels before reals. 

    I'm sorry sweetie, but it's widely accepted that nazis were far right, as has been shown. If you disagree, you can write your own scholarly articles and submit them. Academia always looking for new viewpoints!

    Use this chance to better yourself! It'll make you a much smarter and well rounded individual
    - literal garbage
    Stating stuff like you existing or something else exists outside of the right/left wing spectrum or saying it is useless is not real argument or rebuttal to any of the points Sephiroth has made. 

    P.S., socialism is beyond stupid on every level as it ignores basic math, basic econ, human interaction, reality. There exists every single rebuttal to why it is a bad idea that is backed by factual, mathematical, and historical evidence. Anyone that advocates for it is simply sticking their fingers in their ears and trying to hope their feel good emotional caring for the poor advocating is enough to ignore how economics and markets work in reality.
    Up the hammers & down the nails! https://rateyourmusic.com/~RoadsterUFO
    (edited 1 day ago)reportquote
    Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#97
    literal_garbage posted...
    mal_fet once again ignoring sources and people smarter than him so he can put his feels before reals.

    I'm sorry sweetie, but it's widely accepted that nazis were far right, as has been shown. If you disagree, you can write your own scholarly articles and submit them. Academia always looking for new viewpoints!

    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority
    The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
    Friend Code: 2723-9696-7248
    Sephiroth1288 posted...
    literal_garbage posted...
    mal_fet once again ignoring sources and people smarter than him so he can put his feels before reals.

    I'm sorry sweetie, but it's widely accepted that nazis were far right, as has been shown. If you disagree, you can write your own scholarly articles and submit them. Academia always looking for new viewpoints!

    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

    "It's important to note that this fallacy should not be used to dismiss the claims of experts, or scientific consensus."

    LMAO
    - literal garbage
    Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#99
    literal_garbage posted...
    Sephiroth1288 posted...
    literal_garbage posted...
    mal_fet once again ignoring sources and people smarter than him so he can put his feels before reals.

    I'm sorry sweetie, but it's widely accepted that nazis were far right, as has been shown. If you disagree, you can write your own scholarly articles and submit them. Academia always looking for new viewpoints!

    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

    "It's important to note that this fallacy should not be used to dismiss the claims of experts, or scientific consensus."

    LMAO

    "However it is, entirely possible that the opinion of a person or institution of authority is wrong; therefore the authority that such a person or institution holds does not have any intrinsic bearing upon whether their claims are true or not."
    LMAO
    The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
    Friend Code: 2723-9696-7248
    Again, you have been given multiple sources

    Sure does seem like you're going against the consensus here...

    Look, I get it. It's scary to be proven that you're wrong. But that's ok. You just need to admit that sometimes other people know more than you. Screaming that the vast majority of scholars are wrong about this just makes you look foolish.
    - literal garbage
    1. Boards
    2. Current Events
    3. Another victory for Socialism! Maduro becomes dictator of Venezuela
      1. Boards
      2. Current Events
      3. Another victory for Socialism! Maduro becomes dictator of Venezuela
      Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#101
      literal_garbage posted...
      Again, you have been given multiple sources

      The sources you first provided aren't about Nazi Germany being right-wing (seriously, one of them was a book on the Hitler Youth, you simp) and the last one you gave said the Nazis were right wing because racism.

      I don't care how many leftist idiots want to pretend that left = good and right = evil, they're still wrong.
      The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
      Friend Code: 2723-9696-7248
      (edited 1 day ago)reportquote
      The "making of Adolf hitler" and "the nazi party: a complete history" are books about the hitler youth?

      Huh, that's some weird titling there
      - literal garbage
      Let me guess, you didn't even check to see if you were reading the right page.

      That's sure something. Pretty embarrassing if you ask me.
      - literal garbage
      (edited 1 day ago)reportquote
      Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#104
      literal_garbage posted...
      The "making of Adolf hitler" and "the nazi party: a complete history" are books about the hitler youth?

      Huh, that's some weird titling there

      Your imgur file lists the fourth citation as evidence of the right-wingedness of the Nazis. Go look at what the fourth citation is.

      Also, way to again ignore the argument.
      The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
      Friend Code: 2723-9696-7248
      it's true that forms of socialism and communism are more likely to devolve into dictatorships and s***holes than real capitalism.
      Sephiroth1288 posted...
      literal_garbage posted...
      The "making of Adolf hitler" and "the nazi party: a complete history" are books about the hitler youth?

      Huh, that's some weird titling there

      Your imgur file lists the fourth citation as evidence of the right-wingedness of the Nazis. Go look at what the fourth citation is.

      Also, way to again ignore the argument.

      Oh dear you actually went to the wrong page 

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party

      Try again, I know you can do it this time
      - literal garbage
      Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#107
      literal_garbage posted...
      Sephiroth1288 posted...
      literal_garbage posted...
      The "making of Adolf hitler" and "the nazi party: a complete history" are books about the hitler youth?

      Huh, that's some weird titling there

      Your imgur file lists the fourth citation as evidence of the right-wingedness of the Nazis. Go look at what the fourth citation is.

      Also, way to again ignore the argument.

      Oh dear you actually went to the wrong page 

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party

      Try again, I know you can do it this time

      Oh right, you totally got me for looking up the Nazism page rather than the Nazi Party page. I bet you feel so smart right now.

      They're still wrong about right-wing = racism. Sorry bud.
      The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
      Friend Code: 2723-9696-7248
      pres_madagascar posted...
      What the f*** is going on in this topic

      Mal can't except that he's wrong about something and that the consensus goes against him.

      Poor guy. It's not healthy to ignore reality like this
      - literal garbage
      Sephiroth1288 1 day ago#110
      pres_madagascar posted...
      What the f*** is going on in this topic

      - Another socialist country becomes a dictatorship

      - Points out the obvious, that a country that gives all the power to the govt will result in the govt exploiting it

      - YeahwellwhatabouttheNazis

      - Point out the Nazis were more socialist than Scandinavian countries are

      - Butthurt ensues
      The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
      Friend Code: 2723-9696-7248
      NadYobWoc posted...
      Mal_Fet topic


      Shut the f*** up, who cares about that. This is actually happening and people are dying due to socialism
      This reminds of my favorite Hitler quote -
      "We are Socialists, enemies, mortal enemies of the present capitalist economic system with its exploitation of the economically weak, with its injustice in wages, with its immoral evaluation of individuals according to wealth and money instead of responsibility and achievement, and we are determined under all circumstances to abolish this system!"
      "Why you gotta fight with me at Cheesecake,
      you know I love to go there."
       - Drake
      Holy f***. 

      I can't believe Mal keeps one upping on his s***posting.

      Just give it up. The Nazi's weren't leftists like you think they were. Go s***post somewhere else.
      Kaname_Madoka 21 hours ago#114
      Why is Mal so proud that he figured out that Venezuela is a bad country
      Drawn for me by | Popcorn_Fairy: https://i.imgtc.com/cvSNxRT.jpg | Volkswagen_Bros: http://i.imgur.com/86XOVXb.jpg | ShinobiNinjaX: https://imgur.com/bPb5vEV
      Sephiroth1288 13 hours ago#115
      Me this whole topic

      https://www.dropbox.com/s/aqzwyq8027ggkz1/real%20socialism.gif?dl=0
      The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
      Friend Code: 2723-9696-7248
      (edited 12 hours ago)reportquote
      Sephiroth1288 posted...
      Me this whole topic

      https://www.dropbox.com/s/aqzwyq8027ggkz1/real%20socialism.gif?dl=0

      You didn't bail when everyone started arguing about Hitler?
      MangaFan462 6 hours ago#117
      There will never be any socialism/communism success stories because those ideas are incompatible with human ideals.
      (edited 6 hours ago)reportquote
      MangaFan462 posted...
      There will never any socialism/communism success stories because those ideas are incompatible with human ideals.


      B-b-b-but it just wasn't real socialism/communism!!1111
      ManBeast462 5 hours ago#119
      Holy f*** s***, here are cretins defending Maduro here, wow what pieces of socialist s***
      1. Boards
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      3. Another victory for Socialism! Maduro becomes dictator of Venezuela