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Showing posts with label Sports. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Sports. Show all posts

October 5, 2018

When will E-sports be more popular then real sports?

There's a LOT of factors at play here. I'm going to do this in one shot, so excuse my if I jump around and lack cohesion at some points, it's more of a thought dump.

Source: Former upper management at a professional esports organization in NA.

Let's start with culture. But it goes beyond that too. Humans, in general, are stubborn and lazy. This isn't a derogatory either. We do this to simplify things and keep routines so the brain doesn't have to work as hard. So changing things is really hard. Like MLB. If the baseball was founded in 2015 and the MLB in 2016, it would NEVER EVER make it to television. Having a primetime TV spot every night is huge! You have no idea how much exposure that gives you just from TVs being left on. You gain fans and viewership that way in ways that are immeasurable.

But not only that, as stated, MLB would NEVER make it to TV at all. With the exception of say the NYY, BRS and maybe the Dodgers, no team carries the viewership to make MLB sustainable. Most baseball games DO NOT sellout anymore. If the yankees are in town or it's a noteworthy rivalry, yea, aside from that, no. Most teams subsist on corporate sponsors and, just a guess, 1/4 or more of the seats on any given night are GIVEN away freely. When Sony sponsors the Yankees for $3M+/year, Sony gets STACKS of tickets every week to give out to employees, friends and family. I'm serious, stacks, thousands of tickets. WB Mason, all the sponsors of every team, they get stacks of tickets to fill that stadium. This is also why a hot dog and a beer costs you 30$. Your subsidizing the seat.

And speaking of sponsors, money makes things better. Do you think MLB and NFL get multi million dollar sponsorships in 30 second pitch meetings? No, they've been cultivating these for decades. The new guy in town has 30 seconds to prove themselves. The NFL has had 60 years of meetings to continue to establish value. It is NOT a level playing ground, so this makes it really hard for esports to get the resources and exposure it needs to grow like the NFL.

But that doesn't answer the changes about the game. The NFL and MLB do change. All major sports do! They get rule changes every year. We just don't get the patch notes unless you go digging. They don't affect the group of guys who play rough touch after work on fridays.

Sports basically have devs making changes too, but they go less noticed, until they're major and you hear about it in the news like the NFL changes to roughing the passer or what is a completion. This draws controversy and sometimes that helps.

Also, players change the meta in traditional sports too. Football started out as running the ball and kicking field goals. A forward pass wasn't a thing. You just don't see insane innovation like that EVERY game. Esports has had a very short lifespan so far, 20-25 years. CS 1.X had a REALLY long run too, basically with only minor rule changes, 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, 1.6. Thats WAY less changes than the NFL has had in that same timespan. But at the end of the day, when the NFL changes the rule is the same as Valve patching DOTA. The meta evolves accordingly.

You also don't realize how many sports have come and live in the shadows too. XFL, American Ninja Warrior, Crossfit games (lol), World Arm Wrestling Championship, Drone Racing. You're essentially comparing a specific esports title to the exception, NFL. NFL is setting all the rules of sports viewership, this is all uncharted territory. The same goes for esports.

But why aren't people bored of football? Well, they change the rules to keep it interesting. Remember how bullshit OT used to be in the NFL? Patched. Remember toe kickers in the NFL who could hit a FG at 70+ yards but it was 50/50, now they do it at 50 for something like 85% of the time. Meta change.

A lot of it also has to do with regionalization of pro sports (which was innate, because some of them existed before TV and obviously streaming). Most fans of a pro team are a fan because they were born there or because their parents were/are fans. It's part of the culture. And changing culture is REALLY HARD. It takes generations for that to happen (as mentioned earlier, humans are stubborn and lazy).

If you saw MLB started in 2015, they'd most likely try to consolidate all the pro talent in one major city, form a bunch of teams and play out of one stadium to conserve costs. Exactly like LCS does. Traveling to all these cities is a MASSIVE luxury you can only afford to do with the resources they have had a stranglehold on for generations.

The reason for this stranglehold is again, the stubbornness and laziness of humans. 30 second pitch meeting, don't like it? Not taking any esports meeting for the next year or 2. This takes forever to change. Some of the biggest esports sponsors only got involved because someone young rose through the ranks over the years to get to a decision maker position and was either a friend of an owner OR was already a fan and wanted to get involved that way. These resources make it possible to advertise your matches on reddit which drives viewership. Do you realize how much advertising you see for the world series? It's every other fucking commercial during October. If the sport is that enthralling, why spend so much on advertising? They get deals through their corporate partnerships and they need the exposure. Esports doesn't have the resources to do this, for the most part. It's getting there.

But there's a lot of people who still just don't "get it". And this is really evident. Let's take DOTA2. 25M+ raised for TI prize pool (100M donated), PLUS all the twitch subs, PLUS all the direct donations to players, PLUS all the other money spent in game, PLUS all the time spent watching, PLUS whatever else I'm not thinking of. DOTA2 has one event that generates more revenue than some countries! A lot of businesses and people just don't understand how to tap into that. Granted, it's also really hard. But with that much money being thrown around, you'd think they'd see the value and would invest the time it takes to figure out how to get their piece of the pie.

Personally, I don't like it being called e-sports at all... as it doesn't really meet the definition of sport at all (see below). There is a huge amount of skill to be good at a video game, but you can be a 400lb out of shape neckbeard and be great at video games, which you cannot for virtually any other sport (which plays into what others have said about impressing a casual observer).

I think esports are virtually never interesting to a casual observer - they are really only interesting to those who also PLAY the games, whereas most fans of football, futbol, baseball, basketball, etc have either never played or not since they were kids.

Because real sports takes years to adapt to a "meta" While e-sports "meta" is adapted to in a couple clicks. And will become the standard for the remainder of that game season.

For example using "meta" in NBA terms. The current meta-game is the "golden state warriors" heavy 3 point shooting and spaced out offense, They have been the team to beat for the past 5 years, a combination of player skill and elite coaching/playmaking led them there. This cannot be easily replicated and is the reason why they eviscerate the 2nd best team in the league with ease.

In a video game, players quickly use mathematics and map sense to find "OP" team combinations and implement them as soon as possible. Once other players become aware of this they can easily switch their meta game as well or else they can't compete. While I know player skill has alot to do with gaming. It will always be held back by character design that makes it "easier". hence the term "OP" and "cheese". simple tactics that any player can pickup and become relatively skilled. I can't jump on nba court and expect to score a basket. I'm sure I could jump on a pro esports team and get a couple kills if you point me toward the character who best manipulates the game mechanics.

To be fair, there is nothing to gain at being at an esport event other than the crowd. Watching someone at a console push buttons on a controller does not have the same effect of watching Lebron slam one down in person 50-100ft away. The physicality, the banter between players, the coaching, all aren’t seen on the esport scene. I’m grateful we live in an age where I can stream a grand final tourney, but BEING at a stadium for a walk off grand slam will always be more memorable than a great clutch headshot and watching them move mouse and click keystrokes. I enjoy both, but computers and video games start their public use around the 70s. Sports have existed since people have been around.

Not as drastic as e-sports, but sports also change. The rules are changed, in a sense to stay relevant or at least not to stagnate. I don't know the details, but rules of wrestling competitions had a big overhaul years ago. The soccer rules are changing steadily for a more streamlined game. I remember back then when they have decided to ban back passes to goalkeepers and forcing goalkeepers to start the game in 6 seconds when ball is in their hands. Also, if you were to watch a match from 80's, you would see sliding tackles that would result a direct red card today deemed legit by referees. The traditional sports, although the essence is still there (Still there are two guys trying to topple each other or 22 guys running after the ball), are also evolving.

The overlooked reason here is that sports and games with longevity are symmetric. In football, basketball, and even games like Chess and Go, both sides begin with exactly the same initial conditions aside from the skill of the players involved.

The games are also sufficiently complex that they aren't "solved" like tic-tac-toe and checkers, so there is enough variety to keep people watching or playing them.

As others have said, games that exist in the real-world and are complex enough require a lifetime of training to get good at, and actual sports require significant and noticeable changes to your physical body as well.

You don't need to change the game to make it interesting when you meet those criteria.

In video games, something can only happen if it is programmed to happen. The things that a player can do are very strictly limited by the programming. This goes beyond the rules of the game, and into things like the engine used to run the game. This means that there are a finite number of things that are possible.

A person who plays a game a lot, like a professional player, is going to get a very solid understanding of not just the rules of the game, but the rules of the game universe. They know that doing XYZ under circumstances ABC will result in 123 happening. Randomness is eliminated. I press the button at the right time 100 times, the ball goes into the hoop 100 times.

In real life, the exact same thing is true. However, the "programming" of real life is massive when compared to the programming of a video game. At the moment, no single person has the ability to get a solid understanding of the rules of the universe. Heck, the collective knowledge of mankind has barely scratched the surface. No matter how many times you practice throwing a ball through a hoop, there will always be factors that you are unaware of or unable to account for. "Randomness" is a bigger factor. I throw a ball into a hoop 100 times, I probably miss a few times.

So, real sports have a degree of randomness and significantly more skill involved in overcoming the randomness of the situation. Esports have far less randomness involved and the skills involved are significantly more mechanical. Against two evenly skilled opponents, it often comes down to rock-paper-scissors.

The result is that people tend to get bored of Esports more quickly. Enough people figure out the system of the game and can predict the outcome of matches very early on. "Looks like Tommy messed up his build queue, he's going to end up losing in 30 minutes." "Scott is going for marines, but Bill is going for roaches. Bill will win."

As a result of this, Esports need to constantly change in order to keep the attention of the viewers. Because people figure out the rules of the universe so much more quickly in games than in real life, they need to change the universe more often in order to maintain randomness.

There are a lot of posts here talking about physical sports vs esports, but what about (largely) purely intellectual contests? Leaving aside the definition of sport for a moment, chess and poker still keep a fanbase, and while they both innovate, a game of Texas Hold'em / a game of even bullet chess would be recognisable to a player from 50/100 years ago.

I think the most obvious difference is that esports is still a very young field. Maybe in another 10 years we will have 'classic' formats that don't really change that fast - something that will come about by evolution and a certain amount of trial and error. Those stable formats will have to time to generate a culture and a history that keeps fans engaged, and provides a context for competition and achievements: a certain amount of 'lore' if you will.

As a personal point, I don't think that most esports have yet figured out the fan experience yet. Most sports fans aren't players (at least, most aren't that good). For example, a lot of esports don't seem to realise that the best viewpoint for a player is not the best view for the spectator (especially in a multiplayer environment). I watched a CS tournament on TV, and almost everything was a reflection of player's own screens, and therefore incredibly confusing as a result. This makes stuff appealing only to the initiated/hardcore fan.

So, I’m a very casual video game player... kind of like how most people who watch sports casually understand the physical and tactical aspects of the sport. I have watched esports in TV and in person, but I’ve never enjoyed it. It’s hard for me to relate to the player and become invested in the action. When I watch someone play poker, having played poker myself, I can relate to the experience. I can emotionally connect with the situation. I don’t connect with esports in the same way. I think this is largely because the action is derived from watching an avatar of a person perform actions, while the person performing the action really disassociated from the action. I had the same reaction to watching drone racing. I find the casual viewership of car racing exciting and engaging, because even though I only see the car, I can relate and invest in the driver performing the action... I didn’t have the same reaction watching guys in chairs pilot drones. The pilot was disassociated from the action.

Which esports games in particular are you referring to? Most changes to popular esports games are balance related, as opposed to sweeping redesigns in an attempt to keep the game intetesting. The most popular esports games have had the same core gameplay beyond those balance changes throughout their life cycle, for the most part. The biggest thing would be new content (maps, weapons, characters etc), which is usually introduced as a form of balance, but yes, to also keep things fresh and exciting because there's a lot more competiton, and new competiton being introduced regularly.

The main reason esports games die is either because something new in the same or a similar genre comes along and goes viral and blows up and splits/pulls viewership, or the game fails to breakthrough and garner enough attention to become and remain relevant. Typical sports don't face the same issue. When was the last time a new sport popped up and became popular enough to contend with an existing staple? Probably mma pulling people away from boxing, but that didn't happen overnight, and boxing is still pretty popular and relevant.

People also tend to have a visceral reaction to unpopular balance changes or new content which can make a game less exciting to watch. Sports can have minor rule tweaks, but there aren't "balance" changes, new field layouts/configurations aren't introduced, a new kind of ball or goal isn't added, etc.

Sports do change over time. They just change at a much slower pace. Take basketball for example. In college, I did a study of basketball from 1990-2015 and the changes in test structure over time using a clustering algorithm. It showed that in 1990s the "meta" (using gaming lingo) was to have a 7' center, 6'10" PF, 6'8" SF, 6'6" SG, 6' PG as the lineup that gets the most minutes. The reason? In the 80s, Magic Johnson and Kareem in LA and Larry Bird in Boston and they changed the way the game was played--you had to have people who could guard all of them or you would lose. By the time LeBron came around, the PF position was completely redefined because you had to deal with him. Basketball also makes rule changes that cause the change in meta. For instance, basketball in the 90s did not allow zone defenses. If you double teamed someone you had to literally run at them to avoid an illegal defense. It also allowed more physical play such as extending your arm in the post to hold the offensive payer in place. Also no flagrant could. All of those rules have changed and this has made smaller players more useful in today's game because you can't just straight overpower them. Now we see the birth of Chris Paul, James Harden, and Steph Curry who have changed the game to make it more fluid.

Rule changes keep the game interesting and create new metas. Every sport goes through this. Esports have more competition hence more changes. Dota is constantly being challenged by new games to take the popularity. Who challenges the NBA? In the 60s and 70s, the NBA competed with the ABA and the game changed rapidly to the point where bad decisions were made on both sides and they almost collapsed.

While it happens at a faster pace in esports, this statement is actually false. The NBA (who I’d argue is the frontrunner for being innovative and adding new viewers) has added a shot clock, added a time set to being in the paint; has added new teams and has changed the draft / entrance rules and typically has 2-3 rule changes every year (although not noticeable to the average joe). The NFL within his the last couple years has moved back the PAT kick, pretty sure they’ve changed the kickoff and are considering removing it all together. Not to mention overtime rule changes. The NHL has also recently implemented overtime rule changes that even go as far to change how many people are on the ice. The MLB I’m pretty sure In recent years has either changed the base length in some way or pitching in one way or another.

While the games themselves seem to change every year at a much faster pace it’s typically Bc there’s an entirely new game out anyway.

The games have changed dramatically over the years over what seem to be simple rule changes. And now we’ve entered the age of math in sports which has completely changed how teams are built across a variety of sports.

Personally basketball is my favorite and you can truly dive deep down the rabbit whole into the analytics but the sports were watching today are quite different than the same sort of 10-20 years ago

Simplest answer is that in traditional sports the athlete is the entertainment, their personality, talent and effort are what draw in viewers, the game is just a structure to show those things off. In e-sports the game is the draw, the developers the real stars, some players/teams will get notoriety by really they main purpose is to drive the game forward and challenge the developers. If the players and systems don’t challenge the developers then the game becomes stagnant and uninteresting, something that won’t happen in traditional sports because the game isn’t the driver of entertainment value.

Why aren't E-sports as popular as regular sports?

eSports will never become that popular compared to other sports of the olympics on the simple basis that physical achievement is still a measure of hand-eye AND eye-total-body coordination and video games simply is a stripped down version of that in some aspects, while incorporating other "abilities" (like in dota) made possible ironically but precisely because of its stripped down nature.

(ie: its not physical because unlike sports, you're not expected to move yourself as the video game does it for you. But being that its a video game, now one button can make you into a Swedish penguin that uses a gatling gun during a 20 second ability boost, etc)

The former sees the total accomplishment of that traditional physical form of sports, whereas the latter enjoys the added perks from precisely those additional benefits achieved from its lack of physical form (ie2: virtualization)

I can't admit to be a real life sports fan at all, but not gonna lie, I have zero desire to watch other people play video games. I totally do not rag nor want eSports to stop growing. But I find it equally, if not more boring than going to a sports game, which I already find tremendously boring. I speak only as someone who's been to video game conventions but I never met people that go out of their way to play games a lot, that I find particularly interesting.

Basketball: the center position has seen a decline, but we might be due for a resurgence of the center. 3 point shooting has become a large source of points, but that’s reopened the center of the floor for centers. The physicality of the game has changed for sure, but a strong center or even a power forward with the ability to shoot three pointers, even just mediocrely, opens up the defense enough to allow him to work the paint with some dominance. We even have big men that have enough agility to float to the guard positions like Giannis! It’s a lofty prediction but I hope we see a resurgence of the big man to counter the shifting towards outside shooting that we’ve seen. Putting shaq back in the game now he’d be pretty dominant, obviously minus the free throw shooting part of his game though.

It kindda feels like a meta change though.

Don't think of yearly games like CoD. Think about games like CSGO, DotA 2 or LoL, games that have been around since almost the beginning of the 2010s. Those have mostly remained unchanged. CSGO has mostly the same map pool since the the beginning, with the same maps rotating in and out of the pool with some minor reworks here and there. On LoL, new Champions are added every season sure but the enviroment the are induced into is the mostly the same already existing, and the change they bring won't make it a different gam. Sure look a LoL's latest patch and the 2011 counterpart, and you'd hardly believe is the same game, but same can be said about other sports, on much larger scale (time wise). Look at the steering wheel of an F1 car from 60 years ago, then one from 15 years ago, and the current ones then will look like space exploration level tech (which is not to far from the truth tbh).

The meta shift in physical sports is much slower than eSports though. Someone will probably have a good idea of how a sport is played if it's been around for decades or hundreds of years with little changes. As someone who started playing LoL first season it is hard to keep track of what is going on between item changes, new champs, champ reworks, jungle changes, etc. unless I actively keep up. The rule changes that physical sports make are probably better compared to cd/scaling/base damage balance changes.

Of course sports change. You can't change physics, but you can easily change the rules of the game.

American Football didn't used to have downs (this resulted in some really, really boring games, since you could basically waste time til the end of the half). Mass formations like the flying V used to be common (this resulted in a lot of deaths). You used to have to be 5 yards behind the line of scrimmage to pass. At one point the NFL even literally moved the goal posts, to make it more difficult to score a field goal. Much like in video games, the core mechanics are left alone but they're always editing the rules.

And of course sports get replaced. Boxing and horse races used to be two of the most popular professional sports in America. Now they're fairly niche.

To piggy back on this comment the enduring nature of sports culture creates an identity feedback loop; People associate themselves with their favorite teams, invest in related merchandise. I haven’t played Overwatch in a minute but the first league has a vastly different “Meta” than the current league. The skills I picked up back when I played the game would need to be vastly tweaked to be relevant in today’s game. Whereas the sports I played in school haven’t changed all that much, I can more readily identify my own experience with a baseball game broadcast before my time as well as one played today than I could with a game that has new characters or maps. There’s a continued investment in having to continually relearn an esports game that doesn’t match the effort required to follow traditional sports.

Late 1800s baseball looks nothing like baseball today.

There are very few sports which have become popular within the last 20 years, perhaps MMA is the one that comes to mind. Though you can argue that even MMA has existed for many decades and was refined somewhat before it became further refined by the UFC.

So changing and evolving to find a format that works and attracts audiences is something that sports have had to do, just like esports are doing.

Also, I think many video games were not designed with large audiences in mind. I love to play Civ or WoW, but I don't want to watch other people play them for hours on end. Some people do, but they're not designed with audiences in mind, they're designed with a single player playing or multiple people playing together. They are not spectator activities, they're participatory.

In the physical world, hiking is a great participatory activity, but it doesn't make for much of a spectator activity.

2) There are many more sports which do not attract large audiences than those that do.

In the United States (where I live, it varies by country), very few people tune in to watch curling, kayaking, horseshoes, badminton, dodgeball, volleyball, polo, water polo, archery, sailing, weightlifting, lacrosse, rugby, ultimate, or skiing. Some of those sports have professional leagues here, but attendance and pay are minimal. Some of them get watched every 4 years during the Olympics but that's it.

Now think about games. Hardly anyone watches chess, backgammon, bowling, darts, go, scrabble, or crossword puzzle competitions on TV.

The number of sports and games that are watched by large audiences is far smaller than the number of sports and games that are not watched much at all.

I think that esports will be popular if the game is designed from the beginning with spectators in mind. Hardly anyone watches chess on TV these days, but millions watch Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune. In order to be popular, something has to be designed for spectators.

One major reason is likely that traditional sports teams, etc have roots in physical towns, regions and a such the whole culture of those towns and regions. Your local team becomes part of your identity which is reinforced by all of your neighbors and family and friends also supporting that team and thereby the sport as a result. When you go to a game or the bar you are surrounded by fellow fans and you feel supported, accepted, and part of something bigger. Support therefore stems from a lot more than just pure entertainment, but has much deeper emotional roots, you actually feel a proper sense of love, elation and pride as if it were your own when your team scores, as opposed to just being interested in the strategy or technicality like esports fans may be. Even if they do feel that, it isn’t as engrained as traditional sports are, where there are thousands of people who feel that way about football for every one or two who support DOTA for instance. Viewers therefore reinforce each other to keep viewing to a much greater extent, and are much less likely to get bored, because it’s almost more about that emotional aspect than the actual plays, etc.

Well, that’s at least part of the answer

Edit: Not saying this couldn’t become the case for esports, or isn’t the case in some places, but rather that the physical presence of so many more fellow fans as a result of regional fanfare and this spanning across generations in traditional sports and this becoming part of family and community identity is part of the reason for the more unfaltering support of traditional sports.

This is spot on. Changes in eSports teams happen literally all the time. Your favourite team gets rebranded and half the players are swapped - so technically your favourite team doesn't exist anymore. Players and organisations get moved around constantly, so you can't really build a connection with a team that can keep you watching.

In traditional sports, Real Madrid won't become Futbol Allstars in an year, and won't have all your favourite players swapped out by then. In eSports there's like 2 organisations that keep their brand consistent and coincidentally they actually have a fanbase (besides bandwagoners who root for the whoever's winning at the current moment).

It's not all of the reasons, but is surely one of the important ones.

Because in live sports things change constantly because they are grounded in the real world. Things that happen are happening in a real and dynamic environment, so even when they are trying to do things mechanically identically, the fact that they're in the real world means it's still different every time. When all of the real world differences are stripped away by the computer, a person clicking in the same pattern a few times is identical on the screen.

The bigger reason is that you can't follow esports easily of you don't play the game, whereas you can understand the gist of most sports just because it is humans doing the things on the screen. Everyone knows what throwing a ball looks like, and what it looks like when it's done impressively. Nobody who hasn't played Dota or watched lots of it knows what a dragon slave is or looks like.

This means that love sports can constantly refresh their audience with new members, whereas to get new esports watchers you basically need new esports players. The changes to the game are to get people to play, not to watch.

With video games it's inherent shelf life is part of the point. The next version, sequel, patch, update, console, etc is always just around the corner so the companies can sell more stuff. Each version is supposedly better than the last and there are thousands of games to attract attention.

With sports, tradition is valued and changes are made gradually if at all and are usually not drastic. The players are the things that have a shelf life not the game itself. Football or tennis is interesting because of the new athletes and strategies in a familiar setting. They don't need to make a new sport or super tennis modern racket attack 3 to keep up with new basketball 5.0 remix every few years.

Sports vs E-sports

How sports are able to keep such high viewership without any change while esports games need to change constantly to stay relevant?

Sports, in general, are immediately impressive. You don’t need any context to be amazed by speed, dexterity, explosiveness, size...the list goes on. You know you can’t do what you see these athletes do.

Esports require insane context. Most people have no idea if what they are watching is hard (and the skill and dedication it takes) or not until they’ve experienced it directly.

A hundred hours in most games in not enough to remotely appreciate it. Because the higher you climb the more u appreciate the little things and the insane difference between two levels where most people can’t see a difference at all. I’m champ 3 in rocket league in I watch mid champ 2 gameplay and grand champ gameplay and can’t see the difference most of the time . But in game, I can feel it all day. A game like league or dota takes thousands of hours to get to that point

This ignores the fact that you've got years upon years of knowledge of sports and the physical capabilities of athletes to base any viewing of a sports play on, but lack that context for an e-sport. It's hard to grow up in America with access to television or with a family member who's fond of sports and not osmose some of that information. The average American is intimately more familiar with the workings of football or baseball than they are of even the most popular videogame.

Everyone has some basic idea of how fast a person can run. If you saw footage of someone running at some speed, you'd be able to tell from their own movements and how quickly they clear other objects (like painted lines on the ground) whether this person is hauling ass or jogging leisurely. You can do that because you've seen tons of people run, and you can run yourself. But pressing buttons with split-second timing in a precise but rapid sequence? That's something the average person could go their entire life without experiencing.

But pressing buttons with split-second timing in a precise but rapid sequence? That's something the average person could go their entire life without experiencing.

It even goes beyond that, at least in some esports. I'm mostly (okay, basically exclusively) familiar with Starcraft Brood War. And at least in those events, you don't even see what the players are actually doing in the sense of seeing their hands; you just see the end result on screen. At least if you saw their hands, you could think "that's really fast and I guess they're actually doing things at that speed", but it's usually hard to see that from the end result.

Casters will spectate the game with live commentary and in both Brood War and SC2 you can see the resources that the players have and their APM (actions per minute, which for most pros is around 400!!!) In SC2 you can also see production and units killed. When you watch the game you don't see the player's cameras and the casters can look anywhere on the map but will focus on important things like battles or skirmishes or buildings being made. Its a really fun game to watch and when you play it you really appreciate the skill it takes to play at that high of a level.

A lot of it comes down to with what people are familiar with. Its not fun to watch something you don’t understand. I grew up pretty much almost never playing or watching sports but played tons of video games, so consequently I can enjoy watching speedruns and esports as I can understand how they work and the skill required for them.

But less than a year ago I learned how to play tennis, and now I enjoy watching tennis. Now that I understand how the game works and have experienced firsthand what its like to be on the court and have great moments as well as fail miserably at a low level, I can appreciate it when its played at a professional level. Humans just like what they know.

Just to clarify, I don’t necessarily go out of my way to watch either, but I can appreciate them when I do see them.

Video games exist in a consumer bubble.

Sports don't. Sports don't change. Sports don't get re written, or replaced. You can't change physics. And to get good at a sport athletes spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and for some sports their entire lifetime getting good at it.

Then take a new game. It's going to be replaced by another new engine with better graphics that takes what that game did, but does it better.

People want esports to be taken seriously like real sports. It's competitive and entertaining. But something new comes along all the time. Even the most popular, intensive game like dota, hasn't existed a fraction of the time of a lot of the popular sports. So it can't have the same trans generational appeal.

Sports largely exist as entertainment. That's why they have monetary value (advertisement potential). But they exist in our society for complex reasons like mastery, didactis and some believe a replacement for war. Esports will always struggle to be in the same area because they can't natually/quickly appeal to society outside those who play the game. There isn't a physical component to it either. Your grandfather can't sit there and watch you play and be impressed the very first time he see's it. But he can watch someone basically defy physics on the tv and be impressed the very first time. He can make sense of what he's watching. And again, 10 years from now that game will be replaced; there never will be a catch up period.

Smash is one of the easier esports to understand though. It's 1v1, winning and losing is measured by the amount of lives and the percent.

In Dota no one is going to understand that an Alchemist draft having a 5K gold lead isn't that much because Alchemist fundamentally farms much faster than other Heroes.

The Dota play is very impressive because they set up a Fatal Bonds Starfall combo to hit multiple Heroes but it makes absolutely no sense to a casual viewer.

I feel like your comment is another big reason on why traditional sports has a wider, trans-generational viewer base. At the surface, I think most people, even casual gamers, views esports being boiled down to hand eye coordination, or what we term "micro play". This means things like, getting a certain combination of button presses with the right timing, or knowing what to purchase for a certain character etc. Plays that revolve around the small, immediate decisions that you are able to execute on the spot. That's certainly one component of it, but it's equivalent to saying basketball is about height, or football about speed. Of course, there certainly will be differences between video games, but at the highest level, competitive play really revolves around strategy and teamwork (i.e. the ability to execute the strategy/adapt to opponents). This is known as "macro play", or as I like to view it: decisions you make in light of the entire game. This is simply because micro play is almost always limited by the fact that we are humans and have biological limits.

A simple example, and I'll use soccer since it's hard to explain with esports without some prior knowledge: micro play would mean, as a forward, should I continue forward and attempt to bypass defenders with my footwork or should I pass now to maintain possession. Then you'd probably evaluate who the defenders are, how many of them are there, how likely you are to succeed going through them, and if there are teammates around you who are ready for either play. Macro play on the other hand, again in the same position, would mean sth like: I know we are 1-0 up, and there's 10 minutes left to the game. It's our game to lose now so my best bet is to maintain ball possession and tire them. Hence, get this game plan across to my team, and try our best to execute it. This means, you might not even take what seems like an easy defense line since your goal is to maintain possession. (example on how micro and macro conflicts)

Most traditional sports are pretty simple from a viewer's perspective. Like, tons of people that watch the NFL don't have nuanced understanding of formations, strategy or even what the difference between encroachment and off-sides is, but most humans if allowed to watch say, one quarter could probably explain "one team is trying to make the ball go that way, and the other team is trying to stop them."

Also, like you said, it's much easier to perceive the skill involved in a say, football or basketball, even if you have never played. Seeing an actual human, do things that are very hard or impossible for most other humans is easy to recognize and most people like to watch other people do things they can't.

Watching a game of LoL/Starcraft/COD/Overwatch is harder if the person does not have experience with that particular title, or video games in general. I get excited watching C9 Sneaky steal a drake with lucian W when the other team's jungler is right there in the pit because I KNOW how hard that is, that it was a rare play to see, the skill of the attempted play involved and a million other details about what is going on. My wife on the other hand, seeing the same play, has no context for why that should be applauded. Neither of us are talented swimmers, but we can both watch Olympic pairs diving and marvel at the great divers because all humans have some sort of understanding of how hard co-coordinating intricate patters of movement with another human is.

Not to mention that changes occur slowly in most physical sports, due to familiarity and the fact that the "balance" of those sports is generally determined by the physical characteristics of the players. Where as in Esports, patches come out relatively often and sometimes change the game monumentally. An esports team might do really well one season, but then not so well another because a particular map/champion/item that they utilized heavily was nerfed, but a football field will always be 100 yards from end zone to end zone and the devs can't just tweek Jerome Bettis' stats a little when he runs mother fuckers over and has 6 1000 yard seasons in a row.

In addition, most esports are not location specific. I am a Patriots fan because my father was born and raised in Newton Ma. and I still live in NE. I have a friend from Philly who doesn't even watch football, but still calls himself an Eagles fan. Esports are inherently NOT physically limited. Team Liquid is... well they are just Team Liquid, not LA liquid, not Brazil Liquid, not Houston Liquid, just Team Liquid. This is cool, in a way, but it disallows the casual fan from even being a fan based solely on proximity.

It's because sports take place in the real world, both in terms of human capabilities and the physics of the planet itself. So people can

 instantly compare sports to their own abilities, or what they have seen happening around them every day of their lives.

I have been able to run, jump, and throw for as long as I can remember. So, even before I know the rules of a sport, if I see some run faster, or jump higher, or throw farther than I ever have, I immediately know how difficult and impressive it is.

With e-sports I have none of that context. I have absolutely no inherant knowledge of what is easy and what is difficult, what is mundane and what is extraordinary. You have to learn the environment in which the game exists and operates before you can even begin to appreciate how impressive people's actions may be.

Essentially here is no barrier to entry when it comes to starting to appreciate sports, as we've been subconsciously learning the core 'rule-set' without even knowing it our entire lives. E-sports will never have that luxury.



Esports are also inaccessible to some people - a spectator who isnt familiar with the game being played may not know what the objective is, or how the teams work, or even the most basic of rules. And it can be hard to learn that by just casually watching, impossible in some cases.

Compare hockey with starcraft for instance. If I had no idea how hockey was played when I first started watching, I can quickly figure out the overall goal - get the puck into the other teams net, the team that does this the most in 1 hour of play wins, they take a break every 20 minutes. I can figure out what everyone's job is, and what is and is not allowed in normal play. Sure I might not know what the hell an icing is, but I got enough of an idea on what's going on to enjoy myself. I can get excited when one team is close to scoring, because I know the team is close to scoring

Now with starcraft. If I had no idea how the game was played I could grasp the overall objective quickly enough - destroy the other army, but I may not know exactly how that's achieved. Is it the most damage in x number of minutes, if it is, then how is that measured? do they have to destroy all the buildings? Do they need to kill the little robot guys getting crystals? This is hurt by one of the two teams usually forfeiting before the actual game is completed - as a viewer unfamiliar with the game i might not always recognize that the forfeiting player is in an unwinnable position, and simply quit to save everyone 40 minutes of a slow boring attrition.

And that's just problems with the fundamental goal, a new casual observer would have a hard time figuring out what all the units are, what they do, in what situation should they be used, why they're only sticking with a small fraction of the available units and so on. To a new viewer to competitive starcraft, it's a jumbled mess of flashy graphics and confusing terms. So when a real big game changing push happens, I dont get excited, because I had no idea what was happening or how important it was. Sure I might have a decent enough time, but I might not dive deeper into the esport to really get involved.

And to nip off any "but those are casuals, no one cares about casuals", please remember that today's casual viewers are tomorrow's hardcore fans. If you dont give them a reason to care, and you make it hard for them to understand why its exciting don't be surprised when they stop viewing the content. You dont need to dumb down the game, you just need to present the information to the viewer in a way that helps guide the viewer to understanding what's going on without needing to watch a tutorial on the game.

July 13, 2017

Study: Millennials aren't watching traditional sports anymore

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  3. Study: Millennials aren't watching traditional sports anymore
The Admiral 40 minutes ago#1
What do you think this means for the long-term future of sports? - Results (47 votes)
They're fine, millennials just get content in different ways
55.32%
26
Small problem, but still plenty of sports fans exist
23.4%
11
Problem, the cord-cutting is turning off an entire generation
14.89%
7
Huge problem, the era of sports a major social focus are on the decline
6.38%
3
https://www.law360.com/articles/902320/millennials-losing-interest-in-sports-tv-study-shows

Millennials are moving from cable television and losing interest in traditional sports in favor of “e-sports” and other alternatives, LEK Consulting said on Wednesday, based on a recent study, trends that could cause a fundamental shake-up in the sports industry as media rights have become a driving source of revenue.
LEK Consulting said there is a “sharp generational divide” among sports fans and consumers, marked by a change in TV viewing habits between millennials — those 18 to 25 years old — and those 35 and older. The group said millennials are spending less time watching traditional cable TV and in turn, losing interest in traditional sports.

The conclusions come from a survey of more than 1,500 sports fans as part of a study on television and sports viewing habits by LEK Consulting, originally released in February, that found nonmillennial sports fans spend 41 percent of their media time on TV, but only 9 percent on online TV. Millennials, on the other hand, report spending 33 percent of their media time on TV, with 20 percent online.

The divide is significant, LEK said, because the study indicated that sports fans grow their interest in sports from having watched them on TV. In the survey, 30 percent of respondents across all age groups said “watching games on TV growing up” was their top reason for becoming a sports fan, equal to the number who cited “playing sports as youngsters.”

LEK said this could threaten growth of the industry.

“For years, sports programming has been part of basic cable, and more has been available via premium cable TV sports tiers,” Gil Moran, a managing director for LEK’s sports group, said in a statement. “TV has been the historical conduit for sports fandom. So the decline in legacy viewership points to a decline in sports fandom going forward”.


Much of this has to do with millennials being cord cutters, but the net result seems to be less watching of sports and less general interest in it as a form of entertainment, at least according to the study.

What do you think this means in the long term?
- The Admiral
literal_garbage 40 minutes ago#2
Liberals just trying to ruin America in more ways, I see
- literal garbage
SoraOwnsOctopus 39 minutes ago#3
Milennials f***ing up even more
F*** b****es
Get money
Zack_Attackv1 39 minutes ago#4
They just don't think of the bigger picture.

I cannot fathom living such a half life.
HylianFox 38 minutes ago#5
Traditional sports have been s*** for ages. Far too boring and way too much money involved

When remember when people used to play for fun and build character?
I like my beer cold, my TV loud, and my homosexuals FUH-LAMING! - Homer Simpson
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(edited 36 minutes ago)reportquote
ItsVinceRusso 38 minutes ago#6
millenials don't like COMMERCIALS
bro
hockeybub89 38 minutes ago#7
Sports will need to adapt to the new world where everyone cuts cords and No one wants to buy $90 tickets and $12 beers to sit surrounded by sweaty people in 90 degree heat.
HylianFox 38 minutes ago#8
It's not like Discus Throwing sees much action outside the Olympics
I like my beer cold, my TV loud, and my homosexuals FUH-LAMING! - Homer Simpson
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Kaname_Madoka 37 minutes ago#9
i play baseball but f*** watching it
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ChromaticAngel 37 minutes ago#10
The Admiral posted...
Much of this has to do with millennials being cord cutters


No I think this is all it amounts to.

If people could watch sports on Netflix, they probably would.
darkphoenix181 37 minutes ago#11
I already forecasted before on CE the decline of traditional sports to be replaced by e-sports and users called me an idiot

feels good to see me being right

I mean, it is more than just video games killing traditional sports, it is also things like injuries and how that is a big thing now in football
ex-players talking about how the NFL don't care about your health and you get injuries that impact your life till you die
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I4NRulez 37 minutes ago#12
I can see it, as a kid as more things went to ESPN i didnt have cable and couldnt watch.

If i didnt play sports i probably wouldnt care. i know a lot of people who didnt watch sports and now are into Esports and a bunch of other things
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ShinigamiSoul 37 minutes ago#13
Times are changing.
I dont want a sig!
CrimsonAngeI 36 minutes ago#14
MILLLENNIAAAAAALLLLLLSSSSSSS!!!

caps
GOATTHlEF 36 minutes ago#15
Another group of whining boomers who feel entitled to my money. Piss off.
-The Amicable
TheFuzz3451 35 minutes ago#16
Young people don't like cable in general

Traditional sports needs to get with the program and stream their damn games
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pinky0926 35 minutes ago#17
A necessary gutting and reshaping of the sports entertainment industry, in my opinion. 

When music video culture and the rock industry crashed, it didn't kill music. It just meant that fat cats in big record companies couldn't line their wallets anymore over garbage content.
I Like Toast 35 minutes ago#18
The Admiral posted...

What do you think this means in the long term

End of blackout restrictions and nfl joining the early 2000s and offering a streaming service. 

I can watch every almost every Cubs game on mlb TV, I use nfl redzone on sling for football. Basketball is becoming unwatchable with their current cba. Hockey is a terrible sport.

Being able to generate direct money from fans should also create less reliance on ads and hopefully speed up the games that is a problem with football and baseball.
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all
(edited 33 minutes ago)reportquote
darkphoenix181 34 minutes ago#19
another big thing is even the type of bro-dude who plays football in high school loves games like call of duty

when he gets older and out of shape, he can no longer play football
but he can still play call of duty

that makes the e-sport more relevant to his later life
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MC_BatCommander 34 minutes ago#20
Millennials strike again!
The Legend is True!
TheBiggerWiggle 34 minutes ago#21
I'm a gamer and a sports fan. I follow real sports several times more than esports. Literally everyone else I know is the same way. 

There are tons of problems with real sports though. Football has too many ads. Basketball's regular season up until the second round of the playoffs is completely irrelevant. Baseball is a f***ing slog to sit through. You can't really watch hockey anywhere unless you subscribe. Etc. etc. 

There are tons of other problems I don't have time to list because I'm almost done poopin. I'll just conclude that this is another story of companies not changing to keep up with current trends and instead blaming the customer for 'doing it wrong.'
I have trouble concentrating because I have 80HD.
The Admiral 33 minutes ago#22
I Like Toast posted...
Basketball is becoming unwatchable with their current cba


What do you mean with this part?
- The Admiral
FaytlessHearts 33 minutes ago#23
Hopefully sports like football will disappear in the future. So god damn stupid.
"To be forgotten is worse than death..." -Freya
Romulox28 32 minutes ago#24
watching sports on TV is pretty f***ing stupid anyway when you think about it

only a few major teams are broadcast on the big networks (ABC, NBC, etc), and then you have a few smaller market teams on cable networks, like the twolves on TNT iirc.

but let's say you want to watch another team, then you have to shell out money for something like the NBA/NFL/etc Season Pass, so you're paying far out the ass for this, and then you cant even watch half the games because you have s*** to do in your life or they're broadcast in a different time zone.

meanwhile if you ever wanted to see a sports game live you need to be ready to take out a second mortgage because ticket costs are ridiculous. 

i think it's just that young people are sitting online all day now and they can just go on twitch and watch some dweeb play league of legends, but if they want to get into sports it means navigating an obtuse tv network system to find a team that they like or watching a sketchy chinese stream
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darkphoenix181 32 minutes ago#25
TheBiggerWiggle posted...
I'm a gamer and a sports fan. I follow real sports several times more than esports. Literally everyone else I know is the same way. 

There are tons of problems with real sports though. Football has too many ads. Basketball's regular season up until the second round of the playoffs is completely irrelevant. Baseball is a f***ing slog to sit through. You can't really watch hockey anywhere unless you subscribe. Etc. etc. 

There are tons of other problems I don't have time to list because I'm almost done poopin. I'll just conclude that this is another story of companies not changing to keep up with current trends and instead blaming the customer for 'doing it wrong.'


e-sports is in its infancy

it is to be expected for the time being you would be more into traditional sports

but the decline is coming
sigless user is me or am I?
FluttershyPony 32 minutes ago#26
the less white trash we have causing trouble whenever a football game is on the better.

Living next to manchester united stadium is hell whenever there's a game, noisy ass plebs shouting, singing and just being generally annoying.
HylianFox 32 minutes ago#27
darkphoenix181 posted...
another big thing is even the type of bro-dude who plays football in high school loves games like call of duty

indeed, video games are no longer just the "skinny/fat nerd" pastime
I like my beer cold, my TV loud, and my homosexuals FUH-LAMING! - Homer Simpson
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(edited 32 minutes ago)reportquote
DuranOfForcena 31 minutes ago#28
i never understood in the first place why people go so f***ing crazy over sports games

when i worked at walmart, any time either a football game or a baseball game was underway, it would be on the TV in the breakroom, and it was unthinkable to even switch the channel for a second. and even worse, you'd have tons of employees sneaking back there to catch however much they could of the game, not on their breaks, wasting company time and leaving associates who couldn't give less of a f*** about it to try to man the salesfloor as best as they could. even management would be back there. it f***ing pissed me off so much.
TheVipaGTS 31 minutes ago#29
Basketball (the NBA at least) is seeing ratings increases. After this past draft with all the potential star power at the top I can see NCAA using that to its advantage this season. The NFL is making some moves to get viewers back. Loosening up the celebration rule will help. Baseball sucks and soccer is irrelevant here for the most part.
Verdekal 30 minutes ago#30
TV sports are a waste of time.
Don't tease the octopus, kids!
I Like Toast 30 minutes ago#31
The Admiral posted...

What do you mean with this part

Max contracts were intended to stop super teams but the result has only created them. Players like LeBron should be eating up far more than 30% of the cap space of a team. Most players will be plenty happy to play for 15-20 mil a year and win a ring, than 25-30 million. The difference isn't great enough for greed to beat legacy building.
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all
Tryhaptaward 29 minutes ago#32
All the blame is on League of LEGENDS for making Esports so viable and popular
TheVipaGTS 29 minutes ago#33
DuranOfForcena posted...
i never understood in the first place why people go so f***ing crazy over sports games

when i worked at walmart, any time either a football game or a baseball game was underway, it would be on the TV in the breakroom, and it was unthinkable to even switch the channel for a second. and even worse, you'd have tons of employees sneaking back there to catch however much they could of the game, not on their breaks, wasting company time and leaving associates who couldn't give less of a f*** about it to try to man the salesfloor as best as they could. even management would be back there. it f***ing pissed me off so much.

Because we enjoy them. Why do you go crazy over certain video games or whatever it is you enjoy? Sounds like your beef is with bad coworkers, not sports.
pinky0926 29 minutes ago#34
TheBiggerWiggle posted...
I'm a gamer and a sports fan. I follow real sports several times more than esports. Literally everyone else I know is the same way. 

There are tons of problems with real sports though. Football has too many ads. Basketball's regular season up until the second round of the playoffs is completely irrelevant. Baseball is a f***ing slog to sit through. You can't really watch hockey anywhere unless you subscribe. Etc. etc. 

There are tons of other problems I don't have time to list because I'm almost done poopin. I'll just conclude that this is another story of companies not changing to keep up with current trends and instead blaming the customer for 'doing it wrong.'


Confirming my theory that the problem here isn't sports, it's the companies that want us to pay a fortune to watch a very limited number of sports in an age where that's clearly not how things need to be. 

$100 to watch Connor McGregor fight Mayweather? Are you f***ing s***ting me? That would pay for a year of Netflix. Just think about that. Cable companies are going to try and rinse people dry and at the same time wonder why they're looking elsewhere to spend their money.
HylianFox 29 minutes ago#35
TheBiggerWiggle posted...
I'll just conclude that this is another story of companies not changing to keep up with current trends and instead blaming the customer for 'doing it wrong.'

That's the modern way businesses are run

"The customer is always wrong" (especially if they're gay and want a cake)
I like my beer cold, my TV loud, and my homosexuals FUH-LAMING! - Homer Simpson
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(edited 29 minutes ago)reportquote
mario2000 28 minutes ago#36
FaytlessHearts posted...
Hopefully sports like football will disappear in the future. So god damn stupid.

things you like are bad
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Giant_Aspirin 28 minutes ago#37
ItsVinceRusso posted...
millenials don't like COMMERCIALS


i don't either, but i still watch sports. for certain games i just DVR and watch later, skipping commercials. if it's a game i really care about, i watch it live but mute the commercials. commercials are the worst.
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The Admiral 28 minutes ago#38
TheVipaGTS posted...
Basketball (the NBA at least) is seeing ratings increases. After this past draft with all the potential star power at the top I can see NCAA using that to its advantage this season. The NFL is making some moves to get viewers back. Loosening up the celebration rule will help. Baseball sucks and soccer is irrelevant here for the most part.


I generally agree with you. The NCAA's problem with basketball is that the mainstream ignores it before March, but their tournament is one of the most perfect sports ideas ever constructed. Even people who know nothing about sports fill out brackets, which is amazing.

This doesn't seem to be the case with most other sports, however, excluding the Super Bowl.
- The Admiral
TheVipaGTS 27 minutes ago#39
Giant_Aspirin posted...
ItsVinceRusso posted...
millenials don't like COMMERCIALS


i don't either, but i still watch sports. for certain games i just DVR and watch later, skipping commercials. if it's a game i really care about, i watch it live but mute the commercials. commercials are the worst.

The NBA is actually waking up to this as well. Fewer breaks are expected this year. They'll just increase partner branding and will be putting logos on jerseys. Sure it might be ugly but it won't affect the game and fewer breaks will keep people tuned in.
MrPeppers 26 minutes ago#40
Romulox28 posted...
watching sports on TV is pretty f***ing stupid anyway when you think about it

only a few major teams are broadcast on the big networks (ABC, NBC, etc), and then you have a few smaller market teams on cable networks, like the twolves on TNT iirc.

but let's say you want to watch another team, then you have to shell out money for something like the NBA/NFL/etc Season Pass, so you're paying far out the ass for this, and then you cant even watch half the games because you have s*** to do in your life or they're broadcast in a different time zone.

meanwhile if you ever wanted to see a sports game live you need to be ready to take out a second mortgage because ticket costs are ridiculous. 

i think it's just that young people are sitting online all day now and they can just go on twitch and watch some dweeb play league of legends, but if they want to get into sports it means navigating an obtuse tv network system to find a team that they like or watching a sketchy chinese stream


It's exactly this for me at least. s*** is too expensive on top of it being a pain in the ass. Maybe instead of trying to place blame on potential viewership or enact destructive legislation, they just, ya know, adapt and eat the loss in revenue.
darkphoenix181 21 minutes ago#41
DuranOfForcena posted...
i never understood in the first place why people go so f***ing crazy over sports games

when i worked at walmart, any time either a football game or a baseball game was underway, it would be on the TV in the breakroom, and it was unthinkable to even switch the channel for a second. and even worse, you'd have tons of employees sneaking back there to catch however much they could of the game, not on their breaks, wasting company time and leaving associates who couldn't give less of a f*** about it to try to man the salesfloor as best as they could. even management would be back there. it f***ing pissed me off so much.


a few things:

1. it is cultural (talking to a random dude is easy if you both into football)

2. it is tribal (watching your team stomp their rival gives YOU a sense of self-value, because they are an extension of you)

3. it is fantasy (people who enjoy playing the game imagine themselves in the game like you might in a fantasy novel)

these apply to e-sports as well
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WizardPowers 19 minutes ago#42
Sports would be much better with robot refs. Like how is there not 100% reliable technology to determine if a player got both feet in the end zone? We have to rely on subjective old farts watching from different camera angles.

And red flags or penalties are super subjective and vary per ref. Some are flag happy while others let players get away with huge violations.
Giant_Aspirin 19 minutes ago#43
TheVipaGTS posted...
Giant_Aspirin posted...
ItsVinceRusso posted...
millenials don't like COMMERCIALS


i don't either, but i still watch sports. for certain games i just DVR and watch later, skipping commercials. if it's a game i really care about, i watch it live but mute the commercials. commercials are the worst.

The NBA is actually waking up to this as well. Fewer breaks are expected this year. They'll just increase partner branding and will be putting logos on jerseys. Sure it might be ugly but it won't affect the game and fewer breaks will keep people tuned in.


interesting.

sounds like what soccer does. since the game is two 45-minutes halves without breaks, it doesn't lend itself well to commercials. instead the sponsors advertise in other ways, like with logos on jerseys or branding on the side of the field.
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luigi13579 19 minutes ago#44
As others have said, they need to move with the times and offer more streaming options.

Cable (and satellite, in Sky's case) subscriptions are extortionate as f*** here in the UK and I imagine it's the same in the US. You pay for the basic package (and there are often "incentives" to take phone and internet) and then pay even more on top for sports channels. I think Sky Sports costs like another £20 on top over here. There's talk that Sky will offer individual sports channels going forward, but that doesn't go far enough honestly. They need to offer it separately without you needing a basic subscription that you might not even use if you have Netflix, for example.

Then there's the TV license here in the UK that puts some off, but that's a whole separate debate. Although, the BBC does get some sports, which is nice for those that don't have cable/satellite subs. It'd be nice if they got more like they used to before Sky gobbled it all up. That was one positive of having a national broadcaster.

Additionally, I do think our generation probably isn't as into spot as much as previous generations, which is a harder thing to change. If we want to tackle inactivity and the problems that come with it (obesity, diabetes, etc.) then interest in sport is important. Obviously that only works if people actually take part in it, but watching it gets people interested.
Tryhaptaward 18 minutes ago#45
Let's just say certain subreddits are really great for sports
HylianFox 17 minutes ago#46
darkphoenix181 posted...
2. it is tribal (watching your team stomp their rival gives YOU a sense of self-value, because they are an extension of you)

I never understood this. How does a team winning affect me in any way? Just because "my" team is doing great doesn't mean I'll get a salary increase. In fact, *I* have to pay if I even want to see them, not to mention all the BS merchandising.
I like my beer cold, my TV loud, and my homosexuals FUH-LAMING! - Homer Simpson
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Tryhaptaward 16 minutes ago#47
HylianFox posted...
darkphoenix181 posted...
2. it is tribal (watching your team stomp their rival gives YOU a sense of self-value, because they are an extension of you)

I never understood this. How does a team winning affect me in any way? Just because "my" team is doing great doesn't mean I'll get a salary increase. In fact, *I* have to pay if I even want to see them, not to mention all the BS merchandising.


Depends on where you shop and whether or not stores in your area do promotions based on the outcome of whether or not your team wins.
ChromaticAngel 14 minutes ago#48
Giant_Aspirin posted...
interesting.

sounds like what soccer does. since the game is two 45-minutes halves without breaks, it doesn't lend itself well to commercials. instead the sponsors advertise in other ways, like with logos on jerseys or branding on the side of the field.


most corporate advertisement for soccer is done through merchandise (kind of like how ESPN will make sure you see that Roger Federer is wearing Nike shoes)

So you'll go into the store and see things like "Official ____ of the World Cup" or "Official ____ of the Champion's League"

But that mostly only works in foreign countries because Soccer is already insanely popular there.

Most people in America won't give a s*** if you have the "official shoes of MLS"
voldothegr8 14 minutes ago#49
The only sports I care about are college football and the NFL and even cord cutting millennials can stop that train. I mean, they probably can't stop any major sport but definitely not football.
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gatorsPENSbucs 10 minutes ago#50
It'll be fine. The next batch of kids will be good. It's the batch after that that'll be f***ed and ruin this country.
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    randy_123r 36 minutes ago#51
    Isn't everyone watching their sports online now? That's what I do. Cable is pretty much obsolete and a waste of money. And you can easily stream from your PC or phone to your TV. I really only watch basketball and baseball and that is all online.
    TheVipaGTS 35 minutes ago#52
    They're moving towards streaming options but it's a few years away. Maybe a game or two here or there right now but there is too much money in cable deals. When you have a company like ESPN bidding against themselves and offering billions to broadcast MNF you take it. No streaming partner would come close. Turner sports will not let the NBA and inside (one of its top shows) get away to say Netflix and it makes more financial sense for the NBA to take those deals than commit to their own platform.
    (edited 34 minutes ago)reportquote
    lilJoe457 35 minutes ago#53
    There are way more forms of entertainment available than back then. All there was were sports. There's much more. That's why sports needs to highlight their stars and storylines more often because they need an extra spice. It doesnt for me and I was born in 1991. I love almost all sports except soccer. I watch golf tennis Nascar basketball baseball football and hockey. I get enjoyment out of appreciation for skill and athleticism because I'm an athlete myself. But not everyone is so they can't relate that way therefore the interest gets killed.
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    GeneralZhao 35 minutes ago#54
    first they kill our restaurants now they're killing our sports

    unbelievable
    YonicBoom 35 minutes ago#55
    Other reasons why

    -Millennials are too poor to afford cable
    -Millennials grew up watching their parents b**** about how s***ty cable/satellite companies are, so they aren't falling for the dogs***
    -Millennials are tired of being advertised to for s*** they'll never be able to afford anyway
    -"Shared mass culture" is dead as of the mid 2000's because more people like and have access to too many different things (less chance of being able to successfully ask "hey did you see the game" when fewer people watch it)
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    ScazarMeltex 33 minutes ago#56
    Personally I think it's a good thing. Sports are pretty much the modern equivalent of Gladiatorial games. They serve only as a distraction.
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    Mernardi 30 minutes ago#57
    I guess the sports industry should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps
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    Looked gf 30 minutes ago#58
    GeneralZhao posted...
    first they kill our restaurants now they're killing our sports

    unbelievable
    voldothegr8 29 minutes ago#59
    ScazarMeltex posted...
    Personally I think it's a good thing. Sports are pretty much the modern equivalent of Gladiatorial games. They serve only as a distraction.

    At least it's a non destructive distraction.
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    Godnorgosh 27 minutes ago#60
    I'm actually a cord-cutter because traditional sports and TV in general don't interest me for the most part, not even because I'm that desperate for the money. My sport is Smash 64.
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    ImTheMacheteGuy 24 minutes ago#61
    darkphoenix181 posted...
    I already forecasted before on CE the decline of traditional sports to be replaced by e-sports and users called me an idiot

    feels good to see me being right

    I mean, it is more than just video games killing traditional sports, it is also things like injuries and how that is a big thing now in football
    ex-players talking about how the NFL don't care about your health and you get injuries that impact your life till you die


    What's e sports? Is that like fantasy leagues? Or like Madden and stuff?
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    kirbymuncher  ignores me17 minutes ago#62
    ImTheMacheteGuy posted...
    What's e sports? Is that like fantasy leagues? Or like Madden and stuff?

    competitive video gaming. you're probably more likely to be looking at league of legends, dota, hearthstone, counterstrike than something like madden, though


    HylianFox posted...
    TheBiggerWiggle posted...
    I'll just conclude that this is another story of companies not changing to keep up with current trends and instead blaming the customer for 'doing it wrong.'


    I'm inclined to agree with this, which I guess makes the question of how big of a "problem" it is one of how willing or unwilling the companies are to change things up
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    TheVipaGTS 13 minutes ago#63
    The thing is cord cutting is already a thing. Most networks need to embrace streaming. Expect future tv deals to have some sort of deal with regard to streaming. E-sports is seeing a surge because of convenience. I mean you can stream some things live on YouTube.
    Samurontai 10 minutes ago#64
    GOATTHlEF posted...
    Another group of whining boomers who feel entitled to my money. Piss off.


    This

    Also sports outside of fighting sports are boring as s***

    Why do I want to watch a ball being thrown across a field or bounced down a court and actually pay money for that s***?
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